<DrDuck>
Can I expect Winston and Horn's code from their 'Lisp' book to compile even though the book was published in '89?
<tourjin>
cygwin and windows10 considered same?
<Bike>
DrDuck: if it doesn't have any extensions it's pretty likely to work or mostly work
<DrDuck>
Can you tell Common Lisp to manually garbage collect an object?
<Bike>
no, the garbage collector is not standard. also, if you can refer to an object and pass it to such a function, it's not garbage
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, if there was some function for it, calling it would create a reference to that object, so no.
<no-defun-allowed>
But (trivial-garbage:gc :full t) will do a full garbage collection (if you load the trivial-garbage system).
<DrDuck>
:(
<Bike>
what are you trying to do?
<no-defun-allowed>
It would be terribly inefficient to garbage collect only one object, when a significant proportion of the heap is scanned.
<DrDuck>
i want to force the garbage collector to clear up some memory explicitly when i tell it to
<Bike>
well, as ddefun said, the implementation usually has a hook to run the collector manually
<Bike>
but are you running out of memory or something?
<no-defun-allowed>
How would you pick what memory to clear?
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<DrDuck>
just want to experiment with it
<Bike>
in a garbage collected system memory is not really a concern directly, so you should only need to worry about it if you need to tune performance or the like
<Bike>
unlike C where it's core to the semantics
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<Bike>
especially, you can't do something like (free x) (print x) like you can in C (i mean, it's invalid, but you can write it)
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<p_l>
DrDuck: with automatic memory management, usually the only thing you can do is to explicitly trigger the GC, but not tell it to collect something. There are ways to handle that, though, like object caches and sometimes there are ways to get manual memory control
<analogue>
Hey all!
<White_Flame>
there's also dynamic-extent, which basically uses stack storage
<analogue>
I'm looking into a Lisp family language to learn after using Racket some...
<p_l>
yeah, dynamic-extent hints to compiler that the specified binding will have values that live only within scope
<analogue>
What tends to be most used in industry, if anyone has a reccomendation?
<no-defun-allowed>
This is #lisp, we do Common Lisp here, so CL is most used here. (:
<p_l>
analogue: "industry" is notoriously bad guideline in Lisp case. Most visible popular stuff? Clojure and Racket. Hidden in weird places doing important work? Common Lisp and helluva lot of Scheme. With occassional throwback to pre-ZetaLisp days
<p_l>
and by helluva lot of scheme I mean "significant portion of PS3 and PS4 consoles got to run a heavily Scheme-d software"
<analogue>
Yeah, it's not particularly popular in general development stuff it seems
<analogue>
I liked using racket in a class I took
<no-defun-allowed>
Did you know...tinyscheme is used in macOS access control of some sort I forgot the name of?
<analogue>
small languages are my fave though
<analogue>
I see, thanks!
<p_l>
analogue: the general guideline is that if you want to use Lisp (any lisp), take a task where nobody except you cares about language choice
<p_l>
that's surprisingly common in enterprise software, where they pay you to solve a problem, and language is last thing they are going to inquire on so long as it works on their systems
<analogue>
Lol
<p_l>
macOS sandbox, iirc, uses Scheme48 in decision engine
<analogue>
Good to know!
<analogue>
Yeah, I think it seems most useful in research type cases
<p_l>
analogue: drew doesn't show up here much anymore, but he talked about earning money mainly by making intranet web apps for various companies
<p_l>
the companies didn't ask him to program in specific language, they asked him to solve a problem
<analogue>
I see
<p_l>
and sometimes you might even end up building a new language to fit their requirements, where Lisp makes a lot of things easier :)
<analogue>
Contract work like tat appeals to me :)
* p_l
once did, using Blockly as base
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<analogue>
Most of my experience has been with medium sized older C++ codebases though so far
<p_l>
analogue: one use case you might have is to introduce dynamic programming by end user to such a codebase
<p_l>
ECL makes it probably even easier than most
<p_l>
the aforementioned blockly use case? we pitched to client that they would be able to change processing equations/rules without having a java & PL/SQL expert come and recompile the program
<analogue>
What differences are there between the dialects of Common Lisp?
<analogue>
I see, that's pretty cool!
<analogue>
I'm not familiar with blockly
<no-defun-allowed>
There is only one Common Lisp, any differences are implementations.
<analogue>
Gotcha
<p_l>
well, with exception of Allegro's "modern mode" (lowercase, case-preserving), all important implementations comply with ANSI CL standard
<no-defun-allowed>
The differences between those implementations include compilers and extensions (like exposing GC functions, FFI, threads, etc)
<p_l>
the differences are in compiler capabilities, tooling, etc.
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<p_l>
LW for example has pretty nice GUI library and AFAIK splendid delivery options (plus stuff like WHO-CALLS)
<ck_>
what's special about lispworks who-calls?
<analogue>
Scheme appeals to me the most I think, would you say it is much to transition between the languages?
<p_l>
ck_: it exists :>
<ck_>
p_l: but does it work differently than the slime xref equivalent?
<p_l>
analogue: significant differences, IMO. CL has non-hygienic macros and doesn't care that much about text representation of code. ANSI CL is also much bigger standard by itself and thus a lot of things that are "every implementation is different" in Scheme are boringly standard in CL
<p_l>
ck_: iirc, SLIME's doesn't support querying who call's function at point on all implementations
<analogue>
I see
<analogue>
Would you have any book reccomendations?
<p_l>
minion: tell analogue about pcl
<minion>
analogue: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<ck_>
p_l: sure. I just wondered why you singled out the lispworks functionality -- perhaps because it works slightly differently or better.
<analogue>
on CL or Scheme that is?
<p_l>
minion: tell analogue about paip
<minion>
analogue: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
<p_l>
analogue: I don't have much on scheme, but "How to Design Programs" might be of interest
<analogue>
Oh I was just looking through PCL!
<p_l>
and of course the classic (light on Scheme, heavy on Computer Science) "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"
<analogue>
Actually, my AI class is using norvig's text
<analogue>
I'm sure that will pair well!
<analogue>
Got it
<analogue>
Thanks, p_l!
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<thijso>
morning
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<beach>
Hello thijso.
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<puchacz>
hi, what's the recommended library that implements curve fitting?
<puchacz>
for example, for exponential decay I can write in Mathematica: FindFit[points, a Exp[-x b], {a, b}, x]
<puchacz>
and it t tells me {a -> 1.00123, b -> 0.0365592}
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<thijso>
Shinmera: what implementations have you tested verbose on? On SBCL my code runs without errors, but on ECL it looks like verbose is messing with other threads, namely a thread running a usocket UDP server. After a few seconds that thread dies with an unknown error...
<thijso>
And this is only when adding in verbose for logging. Without it, the code works on ECL as expected.
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<Shinmera>
Hmm.
<Shinmera>
first I hear of this. Do you have any information beyond that it crashes?
<thijso>
Well, the error I get is kinda weird as well: "The condition Not a condition type: NIL occurred with errno: 0." and " [Condition of type USOCKET:UNKNOWN-ERROR]"
<Shinmera>
Verbose does use a background thread to do the logging in. ECL might not like it if it's printing from there and from another thread at the same time.
<Shinmera>
But beyond that I don't know.
<thijso>
Hmm...
<thijso>
Well, now the question becomes, do I start digging, or give up and just do my own debug logging... ;)
<thijso>
Hey... the main thread was still running and now it says: "Attempted to recursively lock #<lock (nonrecursive) "MESSAGE-LOCK" 0x55a7b1b55360> which is already owned by #<process "verbose-thread" 0x55a7b0a2b400>
<Shinmera>
Well, that's more interesting.
<thijso>
I've seen that one before, too
<Shinmera>
Only idea I have about that is that condition-wait doesn't release the lock for some reason
<Shinmera>
Lemme see if I can reproduce
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<thijso>
Sure. I'm gonna be away for couple of hours, but I'll check the logs when I get back.
<Shinmera>
Okey, got it.
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<Shinmera>
Well, I get the failure, but not why it happens
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<Shinmera>
It seems like ECL is, under some circumstances, returning NIL from condition-wait with the lock still held.
<Shinmera>
thijso: Fixed via workaround in e47f34a
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<thijso>
Shinmera: great, I'll check it out
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<thijso>
The 'attempted to recursively lock..' error seems to be gone, indeed, but I still get the 'Condition of type: UNKNOWN-ERROR' at the start in the udp processing thread, Shinmera... Looks like I'll need to do some debugging there
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<Shinmera>
I don't know what that's about, so I can't help you there.
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<thijso>
The error message with that one is: "The condition Not a condition type: NIL occurred with errno: 0." Somehow the udp thread is getting signalled with a condition NIL? Is that how I need to read that error?
<thijso>
No, I know, Shinmera
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<thijso>
Just weird that it crops up only if I include verbose as a dependency. Even without calling any code in there. But I think it always starts up threads, right? Is there a way to turn that off?
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<Shinmera>
The docs mention this.
<Shinmera>
push :verbose-no-init to *features* before loading.
<thijso>
Ah, sorry. Missed that.
<thijso>
Thanks
<Shinmera>
No problem.
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<thijso>
On the other hand, eventually I would like to use the threading stuff in verbose as well, otherwise the benefit is next to zero...
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<hortiel>
why is /topic saying #1= and #1!
<hortiel>
#1#
<hortiel>
are they saying lisp is number 1 programming language?
<ck_>
no, it is saying it is 'infinitely programmable'
<hortiel>
object has object representation... what the heck
<hortiel>
what is #1# even mean
<hortiel>
#1= is it lisp syntax
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<tfb>
hortiel: when reading data (which is the same as when reading code) #n= (where n is an integer) makes a 'label' for something being read, and #n# refers to that label. This means self-referential (circular) objects can be read.
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<moldybits>
#1=42 is the same as 42 except you can now refer to 42 with #1#, but only within the same "read context" or something like that.
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