<ebrasca>
I can undestand it is hard to make money with common lisp.
<aeth>
ebrasca: You can do any kind of software where the choice of language is irrelevant, and up to the developer. Mostly web server stuff, I guess.
<White_Flame>
there are certainly fewer opportunities to be employed as a common lisp software developer, but outside that it's equivalent to making money with any other programming language. Build something to sell
<no-defun-allowed>
use it for symbolic AI and scare tensorflow developers
<LdBeth>
If you can make money with PHP, then there’s no reason you can’t do with Common Lisp
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: symbolic AI isn't AI, only ML is AI these days... and if you disagree, there are plenty of IRC channels where you'll face that argument.
<LdBeth>
IRINA people refuse to admit they’re doing AI
<White_Flame>
applied logic, vs applied statistics. Neither is "AI" in the most general sense ;)
<ebrasca>
White_Flame: What I need to build?
<White_Flame>
something to sell
<paule32>
ebrasca: i missing /
<paule32>
(format t "; (a + b) = is cubic = true | a := ~10D^3 + b := ~10D^3, Wert = ~10D~%"
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<paule32>
(format nil "; (a / b) = is cubic = true | a := ~10D^3 / b := ~10D^3, Wert = ~10D~%"
<paule32>
but all output contains +
<paule32>
; (a + b) = is cubic = true | a := 0^3 + b := 1^3, Wert = 1
<no-defun-allowed>
ebrasca: I would still pay for someone to teach shrldu68 alignment so they can pick up that goddamn red block.
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<ebrasca>
White_Flame: I have server ( Talos II ) , and I don't know what is this "something to sell" .
<White_Flame>
oh, I thought you were talking about the user here
<White_Flame>
(not online atm though)
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<ebrasca>
no-defun-allowed: Have you done some symbolic AI or some AI?
<ebrasca>
aeth: I think AI is AI and ML is only 1 part.
<no-defun-allowed>
White_Flame: well they wouldn't do it, citing lack of alignment.
<paule32>
AI is a ghost, it dont exists
<White_Flame>
lawful neutral
<paule32>
all about AI is a mix of data and algos
<paule32>
no ghost in machine
<ebrasca>
paule32: AI is AI. 1 + 1 is 11.
<paule32>
hehe, under linux, yes, 1 + 1 is elf
<paule32>
hehe
<paule32>
under computer math: 1 = 2 , so 2 + 2 = 4
<paule32>
woops
<paule32>
2
<paule32>
in germany, there is a firm a internet provider called 1 + 1 (www.1and1.de)
<dmiles>
What i get confused about is that most people nowadays when they talk about logic (and even peopel that know quite a bit about mathematical logic)( have never heard of or seen syumbolic logic
<paule32>
symbolic = assembler ?
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<paule32>
math logic = 0 and 1 ?
<dmiles>
hehe
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<dmiles>
see
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<dmiles>
those that study symbolic logic are called computationalists
<dmiles>
the study "applied logic"
<dmiles>
the study _of_ "applied logic"
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<dmiles>
worse is that when symbolic logic is thought to be "classical logic"
<paule32>
logic is logic. no change since greek maths, the problem is, near the half students learn wrong math at the universities
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<paule32>
so what would you/how calculate 2 + 3 * 4 : 2
<paule32>
?
<paule32>
and: 2 + 4 * 4 : 2
<dmiles>
i am unfamiliar with notation ": 2"
<paule32>
is the school form of /
<paule32>
the fact is, many says, / and * have the same rang
<paule32>
but this is false
<paule32>
first comes solve bracket off
<paule32>
then division
<paule32>
and then multiplication
<paule32>
so, when you set brackets to solve, you have (2 + (4 * (4 / 2)))
<paule32>
and not (2 + ((4 * 4) / 2))
<paule32>
the next problem is, all thinks, that algebra starts from left to right
<paule32>
but that is wrong
<paule32>
machines like personal computers reads data from right to left
<no-defun-allowed>
So, on the stack of topics, we have: what the infix operator : means, mathematical logic versus symbolic logic versus logic, what constitutes AI, and then how ebrasca would get paid for writing Lisp and paule32's buggy program.
<paule32>
so, if you have to solve 2 + 4 * 6 , you give wrong 2 + 4 * 6, the right way is: 6 * 4 + 2
<paule32>
no-defun-allowed: i correct it
<no-defun-allowed>
Then what about 6 * 4 + 2? 2 + 4 = 6, 6 * 6 = 36 ≠ 6 * 4 + 2
<aeth>
dmiles: based on what paule32 said, I think paule32 is approximating ÷ with :
<no-defun-allowed>
The order of operations using infix notation is defined in some arbitrary manner that presumably required as few parens as possible, which is approximated as BODMAS/PEDMAS/etc
<paule32>
6 * 4 + 2 = 24 + 2 = 26, not 36
<no-defun-allowed>
paule32: I was following your right-to-left rule.
<aeth>
also division/multiplication have the same precedence level, and the whole reason to use something like s-expressions or RPN is to avoid dealing with precedence...
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<dmiles>
aeth: ah, i see
<paule32>
no-defun-allowed: computers use the good old rpn methode - revert polish notation
<no-defun-allowed>
They don't.
<paule32>
aeth dont
<no-defun-allowed>
And certainly not when interpreting Lisp.
<paule32>
Lisp is good
<aeth>
computers don't evaluate right-to-left, that depends on the programming language...
<paule32>
old and stable
<aeth>
I think most evaluate left-to-right, though
<paule32>
no
<beirc>
*Sigh*
<aeth>
the computers themselves don't see 1 + 2 * 3 they see a bunch of data loaded into registers, and constants, and do binary operations on them...
<aeth>
everything else is something a language adds
<paule32>
data comes in 1234 ---> <---- 4 computer <--- 3 <--2 <-- 1
<no-defun-allowed>
I should figure out how to add some startup code to Maxima, but I asked it to display its internal representation for `a * b + c`. It replied with `((MPLUS SIMP) ((MTIMES SIMP) $A $B) $C)` which is `(+ (* a b) c)`
<no-defun-allowed>
Characters are read from a stream from left-to-right.
<paule32>
aeth, what about 1 * 2 + 3 ?
<beirc>
This is a notational issue. Algebra comes from right to left and from right to left. I prefer the latter. But computers are sequential. Completely different issue.
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<LdBeth>
How about Unicode Arabic characters?
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<aeth>
paule32: I think you're confusing endianness when you say it's read "4 3 2 1". Iirc most computers read numbers byte-by-byte in reverse order, i.e. little endian.
<paule32>
no-defun-allowed: that s right, but first in is last char
<aeth>
That's not digit-by-digit, though, that's byte-by-byte
<paule32>
digits are byte / bits
<aeth>
So according to Wikipedia 0A0B0C0D is 0D0C0B0A in memory
<paule32>
00011100 are data
<no-defun-allowed>
The first in is the first character entered. (with-input-from-string (s "1234") (read-char s)) ↦ #\1
<aeth>
(in little endian)
<LdBeth>
Fortunately MMIX is big endian
<paule32>
if they digit or char
<paule32>
no-defun-allowed: right, but computers store data 4321
<no-defun-allowed>
Depends on the CPU.
<paule32>
you imagine "computer stack" - FIFO
<paule32>
ehm
<aeth>
paule32: not digit... two digits, when written in hex
<paule32>
LIFO
<no-defun-allowed>
And what a computer does internally is none of my business, since we are in #lisp and in Lisp, characters in a stream are read from start-to-end
<aeth>
paule32: notice how 0A0B0C0D is represented as 0D0C0B0A, not D0C0B0A0
<aeth>
It's groups of two, when written in hex
<paule32>
aeth, pc's have a standard format of 8 bit: 0000 0000
<paule32>
this contains the high (left) and low (right) bit
<no-defun-allowed>
And again, what the bloody hell does this have to do with Common Lisp?
<paule32>
only the fact, that computers has this "fixed" "bus" length, the computer knows what he should do
<no-defun-allowed>
"This stream will supply, in order, the characters in the substring of string bounded by start and end." There's your damn answer.
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: paule32 just talks about a random grouping of random computer topics and mixes up CL with Java (or C++?) etc. paule32 should focus on one topic at a time.
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<paule32>
what did you know to do, when you get the bits 0001 then 0111110 , ...
<aeth>
paule32: There are many layers of abstraction in a modern computer. You should focus on one layer at a time, and not mix them up. Often something is only true at certain layers.
<paule32>
you cant
<paule32>
because you have to hold on protocol
<aeth>
CL actually explicitly goes against the machine in a few ways, just to be portable across architectures.
<no-defun-allowed>
paule32: there are two fishermen in a boat: /blit and /quit. /blit falls out of the boat. Who is left in the boat?
<paule32>
some protocols are the rfc's
<paule32>
either you would test me, or you don't understand logic. i will not assume this, you are older, and you should have may bigger skills than me
<no-defun-allowed>
Strangely, I'm probably younger than you, paule32.
<no-defun-allowed>
So, who's left on the boat then?
<paule32>
i dont believe this
<paule32>
nothing, the boot sinks, because the ground weight
<beirc>
Why don't you?
<no-defun-allowed>
No, the boat is buoyant enough to hold two fishermen.
<paule32>
the last conversation con #clschool, you ban me
<dmiles>
when aristotle (greek) inquired about logic he wanted to create a sort of "reasoning system" that humans and instituions could use to work with clarity .. His logic was a non-monotonic (where the very premise of truths can change at any moment ( as the indiviuals discover new things)). It would strive to overcome paradoxes unlike mathematics and classical logic.
<ebrasca>
paule32: Because you are chaotic
<beirc>
paule32: Again, why don't you believe that no-defun-allowed is younger than you?
<paule32>
dmiles: in maths, they give monton smaller, and monoton bigger
<dmiles>
This logic was created to be powerfdull enough to do mathematics or arithmetic (though mathematics is only about monotonic logic, it would not be strong enough to be used on symbolic logic)
<paule32>
ebrasca: no, i let check list to nicks writers, so the red-line is crossing
<paule32>
beirc: i don't know, i dont have see no-defun-allowed ever
<paule32>
beirc: no, me has the age no rang, in an old song book give it nice songs
<paule32>
i know nothing from you
<beirc>
That is sad.
<paule32>
the internet is wide, you came from abroud, and i dont understand english very well
<paule32>
ok
<paule32>
no-defun-allowed: is a gothic girl?
<beirc>
Well we used to be a tigher comunity in the 90s
<beirc>
No, I don't believe so.
<paule32>
it is okay that you see your circle, and go out, and speak, and drink
<paule32>
i have no friends
<paule32>
the people around me have no interessts of me with the topics of computers
<beirc>
What tells me, that this does not surprise me at all?
<paule32>
they are game players,
<beirc>
I suggest you work on your social skills.
<paule32>
i can't see you in your head, for me, it would be nice i have more friends, but i can't find such, i life on behind country, and my money is not over 80 dollars at all, with that, i have to pay mobile (25 dollars) ...
<paule32>
i mean, to take money, take the bus to city, and sit in cafe to catch a talk
<beirc>
That is a pity. Tell me, where exactly do you live?
<paule32>
Jens Kallup
<paule32>
Im Entenbad 2
<paule32>
Haus 2
<paule32>
99820 Behringen
<paule32>
Thueringen
<paule32>
Germany
<beirc>
OK. Dann koennen wir auch auf Deutsch reden.
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<paule32>
funny
<beirc>
Why?
<paule32>
naja, ich mühe mich hier mit meinen bad bEnglisch ab, und dann kommt ihr mit deutsch
<paule32>
hehe
<beirc>
Ist gerade jemand da, der sich beschwert. Wir koennen jederzeit umziehen, wenn jemand kommt.
<beirc>
Sage mal, warum lebst Du in der Vollpampa?!
<beirc>
* niemand
<paule32>
warum? tja das ist eine lange geschichte
<no-defun-allowed>
paule32: no, that was a silly image edit I did a while ago on #lispcafe
<paule32>
um es kurz zu halten: ich bin mit den fahrrad, im winter (februar) nakig auf die autobahn gefrahren und wollte zum arbeitsamt, mit einen zerissenen unterhemd
<beirc>
paule32: I /query you as gilberth.
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<bookshelf0>
Why do you guys use Lisp? I hear a lot of people saying it's great but I can't figure out why.
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<ebrasca>
bookshelf0: I like lisp , it is fun.
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<aeth>
wow, that person was here for < 2 minutes
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<aeth>
I'll answer the question, though. My go-to (I guess that's just GO in CL) example is always HTML templates. In other languages you'd do something like <p> {{ GENERATE SOME DATA }} </p> but in CL you do something like this: https://edicl.github.io/cl-who/#example
<aeth>
So you generate strings from an intermediate format that uses syntax like (:p "Hello, world!") and basically reverse the templating
<ebrasca>
aeth: I am sure he exit because he dislike me.
* ebrasca
goes to bed.
* ebrasca
go to bed.
<aeth>
ebrasca: there's a bit of a delay on IRC. that person from my perspective left a second before your message was sent
<dmiles>
(because i thought it wasnt quit working/ready.. but looking at that repo it looks further along)
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<PuercoPop>
dmiles: no, its a different one. W/o the 'closing' the database restriction
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<dmiles>
PuercoPop: well neat, i'll have to look into it.. I wonder how well it performs .. Like maybe even good as swi-prolog when ran on SBC:
<dmiles>
SBCL*
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<dmiles>
what was the 'closing' the database restriction?
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<dmiles>
'closing' the database means that the code becomes no longer dynamic?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Harag>
morning beach
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<Harag>
:aeth ... my answer to why lisp: Don't use lisp it will change your life! If you work for a boss he/she will sit you down in their office and give you a serious talking to for trying to sneak lisp into your projects! Once you start using lisp you will get very unhappy in your job when having to use other languages, your frustration levels will sky rocket. The other programmers will start avoiding you because they dont understand what you are blabbering about
<no-defun-allowed>
Harag: shit on the floor and hit the door, then start your own Lisper cooperative and put that dumbass out of business
<pjb>
Harag: do you realize that because you put the colon before the nickname, our IRC client won't match it, and therefore won't beep at aeth to notify him that you addressed him. So basically you're speaking in the desert.
<pjb>
Harag: conventions are used by software too!
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<Harag>
If you run your own little business and you start using lisp you will be amaized at how quickly you get MVP's to clients, the clients wont be able to keep up, so you have to take on more projects to keep cash flow going and soon you will have tons of open ended projects and little cash. After a while you will start worrying that you are charging your clients to much because you are spending so little time on projects. Then when you drop your prices to be fai
<Harag>
ones
<Harag>
because you are to cheap there must be something wrong
<Harag>
pjb: thanx
<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: I work for my self for a long time now...
<no-defun-allowed>
Harag: then you've successfully followed that advice, congratulations!
<Harag>
just thought it would be fun to put the why lisp in human terms and in the negative...some reverse psychology ;)
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<Harag>
...the other thing that will cause you internal conflict is when you come to the conclusion that a lot of times its just quicker to roll your own lib for functionality x, because learning how to use other peoples from reading their source code is tough going and there is so much of the functionality that you dont really need...etc
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<bmansurov>
o/ Is there a more concise way of writing the following code (especially, removing the duplicate gethash function call):
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<pjb>
bmansurov: there's no duplickate.
<pjb>
s/k//
<pjb>
bmansurov: symbols are used to name things, but they can name different things in different contexts.
<bmansurov>
pjb: I see. I thought since value is already present, why cannot I write (setf value 10)?
<pjb>
because value names a variable, not the entry in the hash-table.
<pjb>
bmansurov: you could define a symbol-macro, but this wouldn't change the fact that the symbol gethash would be used twice in the expansion.
<bmansurov>
Isn't value pointing to the same location as (gethash 'a h)?
<pjb>
Nope.
<bmansurov>
OK, so (gethash 'a h) returns a value, which is then being bound to value?
<pjb>
(macroexpand-1 '(multiple-value-bind (value present-p) (gethash 'a h) (foo value))) #| --> (multiple-value-call #'(lambda (&optional value present-p &rest #:ignore) (declare (ignore #:ignore)) (foo value)) (gethash 'a h)) ; t |#
<pjb>
Yes.
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<bmansurov>
pjb: OK, thanks
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<shrdlu68>
LdBeth: Who are "IRINA people"? Herbert Simon and Allen Newell also resisted the calling what they were doing "Artificial Intelligence", preferring to use "Information Processing", but there's a funny story about how their work was received at the 1956 Dartmouth conference.
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<aeth>
to have "artificial intelligence" you have to define "intelligence" so I can see why people would prefer another term, if that was their reasoning.
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<jmercouris>
Problem with overriding print-object?
<pjb>
jmercouris: of course. There are restrictions. Read CLHS.
<jmercouris>
pjb: I'm looking at it, what are the restrictions?
<jmercouris>
is it that I have to provide *print-length* and *print-pretty* support etc?
<pjb>
You cannot define methods on system objects or build-in objects. Basically, you may define methods only on your own objects.
<jmercouris>
OK, understood
<pjb>
And yes, you must implement the various *print-…* semantics.
<pjb>
Now, nothing prevents you to define your own generic function.
<pjb>
(defgeneric my-print (object stream) (:method (object stream) (print object stream))) and then add methods at will.
<jmercouris>
and if I don't implement the print semantics?
<selwyn>
" If these rules are not obeyed, the results are undefined. "
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<selwyn>
in particular, not following the prescriptions regarding *print-circle* could lead to an otherwise unexpected unbounded amount of output to the printer which could, for example, break a REPL session
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<jmercouris>
understood, thanks
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<selwyn>
no problem. well, actually i am not so sure about my most recent argument. but avoiding undefined behaviour is certainly reason enough to follow the rules.
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<matzy_>
i have a noobish question. i'm trying to get a package that the author claims is on quicklisp, but i can't find there. if i just clone the repo from is github, can i easily install it with quicklisp, like if i was installng a remote package? or is that what asdf is supposed to handle
<White_Flame>
inside ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, you can symlink to the downloaded git directory
<White_Flame>
and then ql:quickload as normal
<pjb>
What package is it? the quicklisp distribution adds and removes packages every month!
<White_Flame>
however, your ql name is probably off
<pjb>
You may add the https://ultralisp.org distribution to quicklisp, to have access to more systems.
<White_Flame>
btw, ASDF understands .asd system definition files. QL downloads ASDF systems from teh intarwebz
<White_Flame>
so that's the connection between the two
<aeth>
Basically, it makes no attempt to establish precedence, or support unary. It's just binary infix of matching operators. So (1 + 1) or (1 + 2 + 3) or even (1 + (2 * 3)) but not (1 + 2 * 3)
<aeth>
So it walks two at a time, after handling the zeroth element as a special case
<Oladon_work>
heh
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<Oladon_work>
Sigh, the folks in #nginx are being completely unhelpful.
<Oladon_work>
Alrighty — I'm out for the evening. See you all tomorrow!
<aeth>
bye
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<Xach>
Hmm, how can I customize indentation with the stock slime+emacs setup?
<Xach>
I have a macro that does something like (:initialization 42 (foo) (bar) (baz)) and everything after 42 should indent as &body.
<matzy_>
White_Flame: sorry for the late reply, got caught up in something for work. the library is called tecgraf-libs, and i copied and pasted the author's ql:quickload command from his readme, so i hope it works :)
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<matzy_>
which it was only released 8 months ago, and has updates as recently as 4 months ago, so i was suprised i couldn't find it on there, ditto because the author mentions it being on there in that readme and the readme of a related repo. but i even searched for "tecgraf
<matzy_>
*searched for "tecgraf" on the quicklisp website and there were no results