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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<LdBeth>
Hello beach
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<frgo>
Hello all ...
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<frgo>
I am trying to tell ASDF where it can find sources for a system - I am using AllegroCL and ASDF 3.2 .
<frgo>
I need to say "You find the sources for system :CLX in directory "~/clx"."
<frgo>
Does ASDF support that?
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<beach>
You are not allowed to use symbolic links?
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<frgo>
well, that's not really a viable option in this case. I am using AllegroCL's stock CLX which comes as a single CLX.fasl file. I have downloaded the sources seprately - but there is no "link" between them.
<beach>
I don't get it. Are you saying that you can neither control where you put the CLX code, nor put a symbolic link in the directory where ASDF looks for systems, to the directory where you downloaded CLX?
<LdBeth>
beach: frgo means how to use ACL’s CLX to replace regular CLX as a dependency for certain ASDF systems
<ck_>
not the other way around?
<frgo>
CLX.fasl sits in a predefined directory - I cannot change that. The source sits in another directory. I now want to tell ASDF that the source directory of the system CLX is in my chosen directory.
<LdBeth>
ck_: otherwise just load CLX from Quicklisp :p
<ck_>
LdBeth: yes, that's what I'd suggest, too.
<frgo>
CLX from Quicklisp doesn't work for AllegroCL, unfortunately.
<LdBeth>
frgo: you don’t need ASDF to load a fasl file
<LdBeth>
Just (load "path to CLX.fasl")
<frgo>
I do not use ASDF to load the fasl file. I use (require :clx) and AllegroCL loads its stock CLX.
<LdBeth>
You just edit the asd file of the project that requires CLX to omit CLX as dependency
<LdBeth>
Then load that project with CLX already loaded
<frgo>
LdBeth: I don't have that problem (anymore).
<LdBeth>
But note that ACL’s CLX might not compatible in every aspects
<frgo>
I need to debug AllegroCL's stock CLX. As I downloaded the sources into a directory outside of the AllegroCL installation directory I now need a way to tell ASDF where to find the sources.
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<LdBeth>
Emm.
<ck_>
and you're sure that they are compatible? I didn't even know that Allegro offered its sources for download
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<frgo>
Well, CLX is CLX. Or should be.
<LdBeth>
ASDF is not for fasl files without asd definition
<ck_>
frgo: but you said earlier that "CLX from Quicklisp doesn't work for AllegroCL"
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<LdBeth>
You use LOAD function for already compiled files
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<frgo>
ck_: Yes.
<ck_>
so CLX is not CLX, in that case
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<frgo>
LdBeth: Yes. Or 'require.
<frgo>
ck_: Well, the interfaces of the two CLX implementations should be the same.
<ck_>
but if the implementations differ, how can you sensibly debug one with the sources of the other?
<LdBeth>
frgo: require is depreciated, as in CLHS
<frgo>
ck_: I am trying to debug AllegroCL's CLX with the sources of AllegroCL's CLX.
<LdBeth>
*deprecated
<frgo>
LdBeth: 'require works for me, that's not the problem.
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* beach
feels stupid for not understanding the problem.
<frgo>
beach: It's me not being able to explain the problem.
<ck_>
I don't really get it either
<frgo>
One more try: I use AllegroCL Enterprise Edition 10.1.
<ck_>
does allegro load its CLX upon startup?
<beach>
So far so good.
<frgo>
I am using AllegroCL's own CLX implementation by doing:
<frgo>
(require :clx)
<ck_>
hold on at that point for a second
<ck_>
if you have the sources for that CLX, won't compiling those yourself solve your problem?
<frgo>
ck_: Yep, I am trying this in parallel. Which has its own problems :-)
<beach>
frgo: OK, so you want to use a CLX version that is not the one you get by your REQUIRE.
<frgo>
Now, I want to use SLIME's fantastic M-. capability to find the sources when I am in a backtrace.
<frgo>
I do have the compiled CLX.fasl file. That comes with a stock installation of AllegroCL.
<frgo>
Franz Inc provides the sources as a separate download. I downloaded the source separately.
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<frgo>
I the uncompressed the sources for this CLX.fasl into a separate directory,
<beach>
Er what?
<frgo>
So: CLX.fasl and CLX sources are matching - but in separate directories.
<beach>
You said you downloaded the source.
<beach>
Oh, I see.
<frgo>
Yep, I did that.
<beach>
OK, and now you want to use ASDF to compile the source?
<frgo>
Well, actually I want SLIME to find the sources when I do M-. in a backtrace.
<beach>
But your initial question was about ASDF, no?
<frgo>
I thought that I could use ASDF to make the system's fasl and sources to "find each other",
<frgo>
Now that you mention it - well, I then tried to use the wrong approach to solve that problem.
<frgo>
I stand corrected.
<beach>
Yes, that has nothing to do with ASDF as far as I can tell.
<frgo>
My problem is not ASDF but SLIME. I am sorry for the confusion!
<beach>
Ah, that explains why I didn't understand.
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<ck_>
I have never tried to augment an existing fasl file with the source information. Aren't those references byte-positions to a specific file?
<frgo>
ck_: I don't know - but good question.
<frgo>
Would be interested to see how that source position info is managed by, what, SLIME?
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<ck_>
so look it up? There's, for example, slime-analyze-xrefs in slime.el
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<beach>
frgo: SLIME asks SWANK to evaluate a call to FRAME-SOURCE-LOCATION which is implementation specific.
<beach>
frgo: I suspect the source location, if present at all, must be in the fasl file for it to work.
<frgo>
hm - looks like. So I need to compile from sources myself.
<beach>
That's what I suspect.
<ck_>
me too, which is why I asked
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<ck_>
so what are your problems in compiling those sources?
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<frgo>
Source code from 1997. Which I need to compile on Debian Strech now.
<frgo>
But that's just work - and not a general problem per se.
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<beach>
frgo: May I ask why you want to debug Franz CLX?
* beach
fully expects "yes" to be the answer.
<frgo>
You expect me to answer that kind of question with "yes"? Well, then: Yes :-)
<beach>
Why do you want to debug Franz CLX? :)
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<frgo>
Seriously: I do get a connection error when calling (clim:find-port).
<frgo>
-> Connection failure to X11.0 server host.docker.internal display 0: No protocol specified
<beach>
I mean, why not just use the one that sharplispers maintain.
<frgo>
sharplisper's does give me other errors.
<LdBeth>
So it doesn’t like X11
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<beach>
frgo: Wouldn't it be easier to debug the errors in the sharplispers version?
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<jackdaniel>
frgo: most likely the only part you'd need to compare is dep-allegro and dependants file
<frgo>
beach: Yes, I "tend to agree". Don't know yet.
<jackdaniel>
and understand differences to fix issues wihout exporting bugs
<jackdaniel>
without porting bugs as well*
<frgo>
jackdaniel: Yep, that's the two I am on right now.
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<beach>
frgo: Oh, and does Franz CLX support Xrender?
<frgo>
beach: I have yet to find that out.
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<Josh_2>
I want to connect to a remote lisp image, how do I do this?
<Josh_2>
akoana: thanks, I am using sly but I assume it will be the same
<Josh_2>
just sly instead of slime
<akoana>
Josh_2: sorry, I don't know sly (yet)
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<Josh_2>
It's basically the same but with a few more features
<akoana>
Josh_2: ah, I see
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<aoeu512>
Are macro(white-box) "adverbs" useful? By adverbs I mean fuctions that take in other functions and then return a modified function. A macro or whitebox adverb looks up the source code of the function and alters it. For example, (replace + (('apply 'debug-apply))) = Creates a new + function that replaces all function calls to use a debug-apply function that prints out its arguments. Is there any theory about these?
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<aoeu512>
i mean if your going to go with s-expressions, why not go full blast to use their power?
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<Bike>
source code of lisp functions is not necessarily and probably not maintained
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<Bike>
also, based on source code it's not obvious what's a function call and what's not, e.g. you can do (let ((apply ...)) ...), not to mention shadow
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<aoeu256>
Like is there a name for macros that look up the source code of functions?
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<Josh_2>
Why would you want to do that when you can just write your own versions and not mess with the base image
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<aoeu256>
I mean the macros return a new version of the function, this type of macro is an adverb. Like memoize, cached, printargs, except unlike memoize it can look at the source code of the function rather than treating the function like a "black box".
<aoeu256>
Instead of writing a new version of defun, it takes an old function applies a macro to its source code and returns a new function using that source code.
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<beach>
aoeu256: That's non-trivial to accomplish as Bike pointed out.
<beach>
aoeu256: You need a code walker for that.
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<Fade>
I've been playing with Sly after having used Slime for years. Are there any Sly experts in the house?
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<Josh_2>
Not an expert just a user. djeis[m] is better than I
<Fade>
in slime there are a couple of things I do all the time.
<Fade>
hitting , for a repl command
<Fade>
and then open-system to open buffers on an asdf system
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<Fade>
I've added sly-asdf, but this feature doesn't seem to be there.
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<Josh_2>
I've never done that sorry Fade
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<Inline>
asdf caches things ?
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<Harag>
evening, what is the equivalent in ecl to sbcl --dynamic-space-size 12000?
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<jackdaniel>
Harag: --heap-size
<jackdaniel>
type `ecl --help' to see other configurable space amounts
<jackdaniel>
ecl has restarts to resize them when all is used (given system permits it)
<jackdaniel>
there is ext:stack-overflow condition
<jackdaniel>
(readers ext:stack-overflow-size and ext:stack-overflow-type)
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<Harag>
pffft
<jackdaniel>
I'm not sure if it is a kind of grateful response I've expected for caring to answer
<Harag>
:jackdaniel sorry was not at you
<Harag>
at ecl
<jackdaniel>
what's wrong with ecl?
<jackdaniel>
did you expect it to duplicate sbcl's internal packages?
<Harag>
I have thrown the kitchen sink at all the limits and for a simple task it still crashes
<jackdaniel>
did you build ecl from develop branch?
<jackdaniel>
if not, what version do you use?
<Harag>
nope
<Harag>
just used what was in ubuntu
<Harag>
just want to test something on a lisp other than sbcl
<jackdaniel>
what version is it?
<jackdaniel>
if it still crashes from develop branch please report an issue, if you want to build it it is as easy as: ./configure && make -j5 && make install
<jackdaniel>
and if you have enough of ecl, you may try ccl which is more often recommended than ecl for general purpose programming
<Harag>
ok look like its my fault typo, mmmm hang on
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<jackdaniel>
btw if you have safety 0 specified somewhere I wouldn't be surprised if ecl had miscompiled things
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<Josh_2>
If I want multiple sites to run off one hunchentoot server, where they can share the same urls like "home" "login" etc I have to split things up with packages?
<Harag>
:jackdaniel cleaned up stuff and now ecl is compiling quicklisp stuff
<Harag>
will see after that
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<Josh_2>
hmm or I just split stuff up using different easy-acceptors
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<jackdaniel>
I would still advise using develop. we didn't make a release for 3y (we hope to make one this year), so it means that this branch has 3y of bugfixes and improvements in it
<jackdaniel>
(which are not present in the last release)
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel is --heap-size specified in megs?
<alandipert>
does LET unintern the names of bindings unless they were interned already? Or is something else going on there
<Harag>
:jackdaniel the version on ubuntu ECL (Embeddable Common-Lisp) 16.1.3
<p_l>
alandipert: why would it unintern anything?
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<jackdaniel>
I don't know what megs is. that said I need to go now
<jackdaniel>
in older versions some cli arguments were specified with a single dash, like -heap-size
<alandipert>
p_l my understanding is that symbols that are not qualified are interned when they are ready, so I would imagine when let sees them they have been interned already
<alandipert>
Interned in *package* that is
<p_l>
alandipert: yes, but technically they don't have to be - LET-specific associations for those symbols exist only at compile time
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel thanx I am compiling ecl ... hopefully I can figure it out from there
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<Harag>
ecl ... STORAGE-EXHAUSTED
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<Harag>
and thats just quicloading a project
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<jackdaniel>
I would suspect that storage-exhausted is a result of too little free disk space
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel ... 114.0 GB Available
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<Fade>
shinmura's radiance system is defined for exactly that use case, from what I recall.
<Fade>
(Josh_2)
<Josh_2>
alrighty
<Harag>
:jackdaniel ...and I have 32gb of ram at leaste 27 of that is available if I can just figure out how to get ecl to use it
<Harag>
:jackdaniel the fact that it is crashing on just quicloading a project means that --heap-size is not the right parameter or its being ignored
<Josh_2>
Fade: I think I can do the same thing with some packages and acceptors
<Josh_2>
Not that important, but why have 5 lisp images hosting 5 sites when I can host 5 sites on one image
<Fade>
as you wish. there's an existance proof already, so we know it can be done. :)
<Josh_2>
I guess for security reasons the first is better actually
<Harag>
:jackdaniel ...I downloaded ccl and that at least loads the project but its stack is also crashing when I run tests and it has --heap-reserve and thats also not making any difference
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<Harag>
:Josh_2 ...why the 5 lisp images? 5 different projects/packages with 5 different ports yes but not 5 images?
<aeth>
ooooh, using 32 GB RAM in CL... that's an interesting idea. Maybe I should do a really large prime sieve.
<Harag>
:aeth .. the test I am trying to run will use maybe 200 mega bytes but even the big tests dont go over 12gb in sbcl
<Harag>
:aeth ... I have a commercial site that runs at 7gb used and its been running like that for 10 years
<Josh_2>
Harag: why would you want someone who compromises one site to effect all the others?
<Harag>
:Josh_2 how are they going to compromise a site?
<Harag>
:Josh_2 if they compromise the server you are done for any way
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<Harag>
:Josh_2 you run a hunchentoot server for each site so one site crashing is not going to effect the others
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<Harag>
:Josh_2 ...unless you run out of stack space in the lisp image....hahaha
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel ...ecl crashing on loading my project reports ...Broken at SI:BYTECODES. [Evaluation of: (ASDF/PARSE-DEFSYSTEM:DEFSYSTEM "ironclad"
<Harag>
any one out there feel like running a test for my project on a working lisp other than sbcl... please
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel ... got ecl and my project working together...I deleted .cache...rebooted and started ecl without --heap-size
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel ...I have no idea what the real issue was ... maybe it was just a tired user...thanx for trying to help
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<Harag>
:jackdaniel ... specifying --heap-size still causes the crashes... should it be specified in bytes, kb, mg or gb?
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<Harag>
how should i handle version numbers for quicklisp submission? Should I bump it each time there are any changes (bugs or enhancements) to my project or just when major milestones are met?
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<aeth>
I don't think versions are even required for Quicklisp. There doesn't seem to be a widespread standard like semver in the node.js community.
<aeth>
I think Quicklisp usually just works off of the master git branch?
<no-defun-allowed>
pretty sure ASDF likes some kind of semver-like numbering scheme for defsystem :version
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<p_l>
aeth: IIRC releases are preferred, but some stuff is taken based on snapshot date
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<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: semver is just the only reasonable, standard thing you can put in a version string other than the old-Linux-style version number scheme that even the Linux kernel doesn't follow anymore because it means you could be stuck on 2.x forever
<aeth>
I suppose you could also do something like semver but have a "supermajor" in front for seriously big releases or something. I'd actually prefer this, mainly to avoid seeing "27.x.y"
<aeth>
but that'll probably never be widespread so I've given up on clever versions and so yyyy.mm.dd.patch is probably the way to go
<Harag>
ok well I am at 0.0.2 and it wont move from there for some time took 2 years to go from 0.0.1 to 0.0.2 ;)
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<aeth>
Harag: exactly why just dotifying the ISO 8601 date format and then having an optional patch at the end is probably the way to go, especially if you don't even release multiple times a day
<aeth>
then the only debate is if you go with UTC or some local time
<Harag>
so 2019.08.19 good enough? ... I am going to forget to update the bloody thing... lol
<Harag>
or 19.08.19
<aeth>
2019.08.19
<aeth>
don't make a new y2k
<aeth>
some software's still in use from the last century, and some will probably still be in use in the next one
<Harag>
so the project has many sub projects...each one extending functionality with their own .asd's should all of those just stay in synq version wise or should they reflect only changes them them?
<Harag>
so them
<Harag>
to them
<Harag>
eish
<aeth>
this is the beauty of time-based version numbers. If A has a release 2019.07.14 and B has a release 2019.07.22 and then A has a release 2019.07.27 and B depends on A then you know for sure (assuming things were tested correctly) that B should work with the 2019.07.14 release even if there's a regression in 2019.07.27 that breaks it.
<aeth>
And if it doesn't work then you should make a 2019.07.14.1 that fixes it
<aeth>
i.e. any package should work on the largest version number of a dependency package that is less than its own version number, assuming that both packages use the same system
<aeth>
semver can't give you that!
<aeth>
(less than its own version number, or equal to its version number except in the patch version, which could be higher, if they're both released on the same day)
<aeth>
Now, this might not always happen because you could be developing based on the updated-once-monthly Quicklisp version of the library, but if that doesn't happen, that's what the patch version is for, which doesn't have to be a same-day fix of that release.
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<aeth>
It gives you a snapshot in time when everything worked fine together.
<Harag>
the project is used by other "live" projects already so, development is as and when needed. The only reason then project code changed a lot in the last week was of refactoring and finally completed functionality... as well as making it play nice with other lisps etc for quicklisp's sake
<Harag>
there is one section that still needs some tlc code wise and one more feature then this project should come to rest mode
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<aeth>
Oh, in anticipation of objections hours later (because this is IRC), yes, time-based versions don't have to work as well as I just described... but in a world where the libraries are fairly stable, like with CL, it probably would look like that.