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<dannyboy35>
Hello all
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<ck_>
Good morning
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<ebzzry>
Good morning, beach!
<ebzzry>
Does anyone here use CCL in production?
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<Arcaelyx>
ebzzry: Why do you ask?
<ebzzry>
Arcaelyx: I’m curious why so, and if there are specific features of CCL used.
<Arcaelyx>
By CCL, do you mean Common Lisp? If not, I'm unaware.
<no-defun-allowed>
Arcaelyx: Clozure Common Lisp
<beach>
ebzzry: As I recall, pjb has been working with CCL for OpenMusic. Again, as I recall, CCL is a derivative of MCL, and IRCAM was into Macs and Common Lisp in the past.
<Arcaelyx>
no-defun-allowed: Ah I see.
<ebzzry>
beach: hmm
<ebzzry>
do you know of any ccl-specific features that were used?
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<beach>
ebzzry: Very likely the GUI features specific to the Macintosh.
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<LdBeth>
Good evening
<shka__>
hi
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<LdBeth>
What do you use for IPC?
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<syntaxfree>
random off-topic.
<syntaxfree>
I did "dr. scheme" in college for a course that was a light dumbed down sicp-alike. sure, fun stuff.
<syntaxfree>
but I came across Hy. and I'm replacing bits of this larger ML-oriented API products.
<syntaxfree>
I think I grokked macros. Like in a sudden enlightenment.
<syntaxfree>
Couldn't sleep well. Yow.
<syntaxfree>
(Hy is a Lisp syntax for Python, sort of. But has macros. hylang.org and stuff)
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<no-defun-allowed>
Hy doesn't have lexical block scoping, so you might have some more surprises from here.
<syntaxfree>
as far as I can tell Hy follows Python rules of scoping. It would be awkward to learn otherwise.
<syntaxfree>
it doesn't have "let". it has within-function assignment, like python.
<no-defun-allowed>
More awkward to have automatic type coercion and function scoping in a Lisp to me.
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<syntaxfree>
I wish there was more support for type hinting. newer python things are extensively using type hints (eg to validate json inputs and produce valid Python objects from JS objects)
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<beach>
syntaxfree: You wish that for what? Common Lisp?
<syntaxfree>
almost all of my "higher level", organizational Python code is type-hinted, with semantic type synonyms, etc. But macros appear to fill in a lot of missing teeth in implementation-level, numpy-based code)
<syntaxfree>
beach: Hy.
<beach>
I recommend you program in Common Lisp instead. That way, you have all the type declarations you need.
<syntaxfree>
beach: it's a good ideal. I'm very fond of Haskell too. But hey, it's a node shop and I'm the weirdo already.
<syntaxfree>
anyway, this should exist (defmacro np-count [conditional-expression] `(np.sum (np.where ~conditional-expression)))
<syntaxfree>
it was already a pain in matlab.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, I would rather work in a proper Lisp that has a compiler that can actally take advantage of type declarations.
<syntaxfree>
but it does work in Hy. I mean it should be a standard feature of numpy.
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<syntaxfree>
theré's also the fact that python is not very good at inlining code. if it does it at all. a lot of syntactic effects can be achieved in "pure functions" style, but that's less good with large non-sparse matrices.
<syntaxfree>
and a lot of the benefit of "pure functions" is code rewriting.
<syntaxfree>
I basically learned the basics of programming with Haskell. So I see pure functions everywhere. The enlightenment is that a lot of what I do with "pure functions" is literally syntactic sugar. Should be unrolled at the get-go.
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<syntaxfree>
also often many functions-to-make-syntactic-sugar are a single macro. Because reasoning about syntax and reasoning about semantics can be separated. This is brilliant.
<jackdaniel>
python nor haskell are not very syntax free ,-) let's focus on Common Lisp!
<LdBeth>
I guess you get confused by what’s should be called user definable control flow and what’s real syntactic sugar
<LdBeth>
That’s why I’m not a big fan of macro
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<syntaxfree>
maybe I'm using "syntactic sugar" wrong. I should say "ergonomic improvement"?
<syntaxfree>
cleaner code, less typing?
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<syntaxfree>
because there's a lot of functional programming that's actually reasoning semantically with functions. It can't all be unrolled at "compile time" (this is ill-defined for python but anyway)
<no-defun-allowed>
I should mention that if you use CPython, there's basically no compilation that would make use of any optimisation techniques, it's just a plain bytecode interpreter. But that's the end of that.
<LdBeth>
Syntactic sugar is, however rather different to the sprit of meta programming
<syntaxfree>
but there's a lot of higher-order functions that are really about "ergonomic improvements".
<jackdaniel>
maybe more direct approach will be better: please move the offtopic to #lispcafe ;p
<LdBeth>
syntaxfree: it’s usually a bad idea mimicking features of functional programming in a language not designed with at least some functional things in mind
<syntaxfree>
jackdaniel: sure thing. I apologize.
<slightlycyborg>
Is GNU lightning+Sc on par with SBCL for speed?
<jackdaniel>
syntaxfree: no problem, thank you.
<syntaxfree>
LdBeth: that was half a comment. I was saying there's genuine use cases for functional programming and cases where higher-order functions are used for programmer convenience. I'm moving to #lispcafe as directed by community leaders.
<LdBeth>
slightlycyborg: no, lightning is not specialized on X86
<slightlycyborg>
Ah..
<LdBeth>
the quality of assembled machine code is relatively poor
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<Posterdati>
hi
<Posterdati>
any GENDL user?
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<Xach>
Posterdati: what prompts the question?
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<sarna>
hi, what's the standard book I should grab for learning lisp? for scheme there's SICP and the little schemer, don't know about lisp equivalents
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<jmercouris>
Gentle introduction to symbolic computation is a good one, as is Practical Common Lisp
<sarna>
jmercouris: thanks!
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<jmercouris>
no problem
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<beach>
sarna: Your choice may depend on your previous programming experience.
<jmercouris>
I like Gentle introduction because it goes through from the very basics, even though I had a degree and around 10 years of programming experience, I still enjoyed learning about everything from a blank-slate perspective
<beach>
Great!
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<beach>
Both are available for free as PDFs, so sarna can have a look and then choose.
<sarna>
I've dabbled in many languages and have been programming for a couple of years, I haven't written any big projects yet though
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<sarna>
I'm reading Practical Common Lisp's introduction now, beach :)
<Xach>
few books show you how to make complete, real-world projects, and those that try seem to go out-of-date quickly. but you will get good fundamentals.
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<sarna>
I don't like books that go and make some big project the center of attention - I feel like not learning much
<beach>
sarna: In case you get stuck, there is #clschool for basic questions. Some newbie questions are tolerated here, though.
<sarna>
there's a C book and the author is using his own parser library, and you write a scheme using it.. I didn't like it at all
<sarna>
beach: oh, nice to know!
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<Xach>
Today's useful, single-purpose project for me is cl-cpus which provides (cpus:get-number-of-processors)
<jmercouris>
that isn't useful
<Xach>
It is useful for me.
<jmercouris>
you would need to know a lot of hardware specific details about those CPUs to actually do anything useful with that knowledge
<Xach>
Not for my purposes.
<jmercouris>
I guess if you made a utility for someone that they can run to check out how many CPUs they have in their machine, that could be useful
<Xach>
Which is to give a basis for a reasonable value for lparalallel:make-kernel
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<jmercouris>
That's not an accurate basis, but let's not go into the intricacies of hardware
<Xach>
jmercouris: if you were creating a kernel for lparallel, what would you use to give a good worker count?
<jmercouris>
I wouldn't use core count, that's for sure
<mfiano>
It would be useful to me as well, if it was portable to any implementations that mattered. I'd probably use it to allocated a thread pool
<mfiano>
Xach: Oh yeah that's exactly what I'd use it for
<mfiano>
lparallel is great
<jmercouris>
even just thinking about hyperthreading... it makes core count useless
<Xach>
jmercouris: what would you use?
<jmercouris>
I would probably run some test to see on however many threads my application is most efficient
<jmercouris>
and then allocate or deallocate the necessary amount of threads, I would never directly introspect the hardware to answer questions about how my software will run
<jmercouris>
that can be determined by simply running my software
<Xach>
mfiano: I like it. I am running into trouble converting some code that was very single-threaded into lparallel because it relies on things like process cwd which is not thread-local.
<Xach>
And I think I might be running into sb-ext:run-program issues with threads too but I'm not completely sure.
<jmercouris>
also depending on the cache, fsb of the processor, well, more threads doesn't necessarily mean better performance, even for a workload that can be parallelized
<Xach>
Ok. Well, I'm going to use processor count and see how it goes.
<Xach>
Anything better is good and best is not needed.
<scymtym>
Xach: are the issues performance-related? there have been recent changes affecting the performance of spawning sub-processes in SBCL
<Xach>
scymtym: no, I'm getting errors about binding SB-<something>:FILENAME to a non-pathname and too many open files
<pfdietz>
I worry about overheating the CPU on my machine if I'm running on all the (hyperthreaded) cores. So maybe a cl-temperature package would be useful.
<Xach>
I don't have the exact messages handy, sorry, but I can get them sometime later today.
<scymtym>
Xach: i don't recognize that one
<Xach>
I also struggle with errors in workers and their interaction with slime - it means reverting more to a batchlike mode of debugging
<scymtym>
sounds very similar to my scenario overall. we can talk later if you want
<Xach>
Right now I build each quicklisp project one-by-one and see what succeeds or fails. This is done with a shared fasl cache so it is not completely clean, but with a clean cache on each run it would take forever. It already takes two hours. I am looking to build more projects at once, but there's an issue of clobbering each others' fasls.
<Xach>
So I was thinking about binning projects into 16 buckets with 16 fasl caches and using lparallel to build N at a time without fasl clashes.
<Xach>
fasl cachl clashls
<Xach>
This required working out a bunch of bad assumptions but I am not sure I worked them all out.
<Xach>
"bad" in the sense that they assumed sequential single-threaded operation
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<scymtym>
could you keep the shared cache if you built systems in dependency order?
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<ck_>
So it has come to this. The old nemesis, topological ordering, has returned for a final [and so on...]
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<Xach>
scymtym: I don't trust the expressed dependencies
<Xach>
I build to find out the true dependencies
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<scymtym>
Xach: i see
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<_death>
Xach: this sounds like the quickdoc talk on the last ELS.. though I remember feeling there had to be a better alternative than the solution presented
<Xach>
I curse the dark stars that aligned against my attendance!!
<shka_>
gibsonf1: anyway, whole deal with HTMs is that you are building sort of bunch of perceptrons predicting each other activation
<gibsonf1>
Awesome - thanks
<gibsonf1>
I'm keen on the hierarchy part, taking the first set of results and processing those etc for higher abstraction
<shka_>
ah, ok
<shka_>
this part of theory is kinda crap imho
<shka_>
they still didn't develop reasonable learning algorithm for multiple layers AFAIK
<gibsonf1>
I think they just haven't quite figured out how to get there yet, although the neuroscience supports it. That's why I'm taking a spatially correct graph approach work with
<shka_>
and since they approaching this in biomorph style, they won't use gradient descent
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<shka_>
gibsonf1: there are few things i would like to try out with htm eventually
<shka_>
first of, scrap their version of perceptron, and use p-perceptron instead
<shka_>
secondly, attempt to mix in few non-linear inputs into columns
<shka_>
i didn't put much thought into layering the whole system
<gibsonf1>
Thanks shka - I'll let you know if the graph approach helps solve some problems
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<shka_>
everything that sort of worked for me was a single layer at this point
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<ebrasca>
Is grand central dispatch good for lisp?
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<Xach>
scymtym: "The value NIL is not of type <pathname stuff> when binding SB-KERNEL:FILENAME"
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<scymtym>
Xach: just from calling RUN-PROGRAM concurrently?
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<Xach>
scymtym: Not sure. This is from within a lparallel worker and I don't have the backtrace.
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<Xach>
Also getting "#<SB-IMPL::HANDLER INPUT on BOGUS descriptor N ... has a bad file descriptor."
<Xach>
Aha, I see the problem with that one.
<Xach>
Another symptom of single-threadedness lingers.
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<Xach>
Something is leaking fds somewhere.
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<Xach>
i have 229 hanging pipes!
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<Kurvivor>
good time of a day! need some help with ECL crashing
<Kurvivor>
i have built it in cygwin, and to my horror it crashes due to stack overflow any time i try to compile lisp files
<Xach>
I wish I could help, but I don't use ecl or cygwin, sorry.
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<Kurvivor>
Xach: thanks for an answer anyway. It soothes the heartache
<Xach>
Kurvivor: I'm curious - what prompts your use of ecl?
<Kurvivor>
always wanted to try, well, embedding it
<Xach>
Cool.
<jackdaniel>
Kurvivor: I'm going to sleep soon, so I won't be able to help immedietely, but please report the issue on ecl's issue tracker