<aeth>
I guess it would be (member :windows *features*) after loading trivial-features
<no-defun-allowed>
look aeth, please don't make trivial-is-windows and put it on quicklisp
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<aeth>
I mean, at least CL has the legitimate need for something like that. It's portability across implementations. It's just that it's done in trivial-features and not 10+ libraries each of one line per implementation
<aeth>
I'm not sure why trivial-features decided to make them all standardize on :windows, not :win32, though
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<aeth>
I'd think most of them already have :win32
<aeth>
It looks like allegro uses :mswindows
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<oni-on-ion>
aeth, agh !
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<asarch>
In HTML you could write: <meta charset="utf-8">, in net.html.generator:html you could: (:meta ...), however, how could you add the "chartset=utf-8" attribute to the tag?
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<oni-on-ion>
asarch, link to the lib you are using
<oni-on-ion>
?
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<asarch>
htmlgen from OpenAllegro
<no-defun-allowed>
Does ql:register-local-projects not recurse into directories to find systems for anyone else on CCL?
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<mgsk>
sanit check please: An unbound slot is *not* the same thing as a slot being NIL right?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, trying to read an unbound slot will signal a condition typically.
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<mgsk>
no-defun-allowed: quicklisp + ccl + nested dirs works OK for me.
<no-defun-allowed>
Weird.
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<PuercoPop>
asarch: In spinneret it would be (:meta :charset "utf-8" ...). I imagine it would be the same in htmlgen
<PuercoPop>
the documentation of htmlgen says the attributes can be symbols or strings although they encourage keywords since "that looks more lisp like"
<random-jellyfish>
the problem is that slot-pieces returns QUOTE instead of zero
<random-jellyfish>
when the condition for zero is met
<random-jellyfish>
and I don't understand why
<random-jellyfish>
this is common lisp
<beach>
Probably because you have nested quoted expressions.
<beach>
random-jellyfish: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp so it had better be Common Lisp.
<beach>
A single quote before the first opening parenthesis is probably what you need.
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<random-jellyfish>
beach: which first opening parenthesis? from which function?
<beach>
(defvar *board* '( <-- That one.
<beach>
Why do you put quotes before BLACK, WHITE, and EMPTY?
<random-jellyfish>
because I want them to be atoms
<random-jellyfish>
can they be atoms without the quotes?
<beach>
Quoting has nothing to do with anything being an atom.
<beach>
It has to do with what is evaluated and what is not.
<random-jellyfish>
I don't want them to be evaluated as functions
<beach>
You need to study the rules of evaluation, and the definition of the special operator QUOTE.
<beach>
Since they are already inside a QUOTE special form, as indicated by the outermost quote, they are not in a position to be evaluated.
<beach>
You need to study the rules of evaluation, and the definition of the special operator QUOTE.
<beach>
Besides, symbols are considered names of functions only (with a few exceptions) when they are the first element of a compound expression. which is not the case here.
<pjb>
quoting has to do with what is evaluated and what is not ONLY in code, not in data!
<pjb>
The only thing that quoting does is to read a list with two elements, the first one being CL:QUOTE.
<pjb>
'x is read as (CL:QUOTE x)
<pjb>
That's all there is to it.
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<pjb>
(defvar *board* '((2 'black) 'empty) is read as (defvar *board* (CL:QUOTE ((2 (CL:QUOTE black)) (CL:QUOTE empty))))
<pjb>
so you see that if you evaluate this form, the variable *board* will be bound, if previously unbound, to the list ((2 (CL:QUOTE black)) (CL:QUOTE empty))
<pjb>
The second element of the first element of this list is a list of two elements: (CL:QUOTE black)
<random-jellyfish>
I removed all the quotes from that list
<beach>
random-jellyfish: Good, but did you understand why you should?
<random-jellyfish>
I understand quote changes the mode of evaluation, it switches from form mode to data mode
<beach>
As a first approximation, that probably works.
<random-jellyfish>
at least that's what I read when I started learning lisp
<random-jellyfish>
but if 'x is read as (CL:QUOTE x)
<random-jellyfish>
it looks like a different story
<beach>
It is not.
<random-jellyfish>
I still get the same result with the quotes removed
<beach>
random-jellyfish: As pjb said, when the READ function sees a ' character, it reads the expression that follows it, let say that expression is <expr>, then it returns (QUOTE <expr>).
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<beach>
random-jellyfish: Maybe you need to use DEFPARAMETER rather than DEFVAR.
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<jansc>
Hi! Is there a CL library for converting a relative URL to an absolute URL, given a base URL? I'm looking for something like urljoin in python: urljoin('http://mysite.com/foo/bar/x.html', '../../images/img.png') => 'http://mysite.com/images/img.png'. Seems like purl and quri don't support this.
<random-jellyfish>
apparently talking helps more than reading :))
<random-jellyfish>
beach: thanks for that link earlier on form evaluation, sheds more light over my ignorance
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<beach>
random-jellyfish: Oh, good.
<jansc>
random-jellyfish: Yeah. I guess that's why Rubber Duck Debugging is a thing.
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<LdBeth>
I think I find a way to emulate InterLisp’s [] pair in emacs
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<LdBeth>
Installed smartparens and I recall the reason last time I deleted that is I hate auto closing up parentheses which causes 1. hard to see how many parentheses I have to skip 2. REPL behavior annoying
<beach>
What if [ were to insert a [ as usual, and then when you type the ], the [ turns into ( and the ] turns into as many ) as required to close to [?
<beach>
Then the brackets would just be editor commands, and not present in the resulting code.
<LdBeth>
beach: yes, that is exactly what I think, and can be implemented with emacs’ marker feature
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<moldybits>
LdBeth: what do you mean parentheses you have to skip?
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<moldybits>
with smartparen ) at a closing paren will skip over it and highlight the opening paren so i know where i am.
<moldybits>
personally, i couldn't stand using it until i discovered sp-forward-slurp-sexp.
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<LdBeth>
assume my cursor is |, now I have to skip unspecified number of ) to start a new sexp
<LdBeth>
moldybits: (defun ... )|)))))
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<LdBeth>
I’m using a config that auto pairs up when a ( is typed
<moldybits>
i don't understand, where are all those )s from?
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<LdBeth>
So when I jut type (, there will be ()
<moldybits>
yeah
<moldybits>
but why would you have a bunch of ) after a defun?
<LdBeth>
For example (let ((|)))
<LdBeth>
And near the end of a function body it is normal to have five or six )s
<moldybits>
(let ((x 42|))) then when i type )) it'll highlight the (( at the other end.
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<LdBeth>
But if it is (if a (let ((|))))
<LdBeth>
That actually makes not difference from not auto pair parentheses
<LdBeth>
Since I still have to take the same care which one match which, and types almost the same amount of )s
<LdBeth>
And I don’t like having this feature in repl
<LdBeth>
That’s why :P
<LdBeth>
And I guess that’s the same reason scheme uses []
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<paule32>
the question is, how can i use "powerDuraCell-AAA" in a "defun", to print :name
<paule32>
?
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<ski>
LdBeth : s/Scheme/Racket/
<LdBeth>
ski: actually, Chez Scheme allows that
<LdBeth>
And what I remember is that is specified in R6RS
<ski>
ok, ty
<LdBeth>
paule32: u add ":reader what-ever-name" after ":initarg :name" and call "(what-ever-name powerFuraCell-AAA)" to access the name slot
<paule32>
ah, ok, i found "slot-value"
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<LdBeth>
slot-value also works, but explicitly use reader often has merit of optimized speed
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<szmer>
is there a way to get in SLIME/SBCL the version of a definition with purposes of variables like #:G8 visible? I already have optimize debug 3 declaimed, macroexpands don't do this
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<beach>
szmer: There may not be any particular "purpose" other than "temporary variable".
<beach>
szmer: I don't know the internals of SBCL, but that's the kind of thing that a typical compiler would generate for intermediate results that are not explicit in the source code.
<beach>
szmer: ... like if you have (f (g x)), the compiler may generate code such as (setq #:G234 (g x)) (setq #:G345 (f #:G234))
<another-user>
where can i find list of all functions operating on trees like subst? iirc clhs had something like this but can't find it now
<jcowan>
FWIW, I don't avoid the use of `list` as a local variable in Scheme, as there is absolutely no need to do so unless I am going to call the standard `list` procedure within the lexical scope of the variable. That said, outside list libraries, it's usually better to call something foo-list to indicate that it has foos in it.
<jcowan>
This supposed advantage of Lisp-2s is really not much of an advantage. (There are others.)
<aeth>
jcowan: I think you might underestimate how often this shows up in CL because you're used to Scheme. Separate class/type namespace is arguably as important as the other two, e.g. (check-type list list)
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<jcowan>
Good point.
<aeth>
jcowan: And (check-type list list) is a bad example because a list often isn't a good name for a list. But foo is often a good name for a foo.
<aeth>
I guess the Scheme solution here would be to call it a Foo instead of a foo?
<aeth>
That's something you can't do in CL.
<jcowan>
Since types are not standardized, there are various approaches to naming them. As I noted on #scheme, I write <foo> for a record-type, reserving foo for the constructor of immutable records and make-foo for the constructor of mutable ones.
<jcowan>
I haven't seen that approach used, perhaps because case-blind Schemes still exist.
<jcowan>
s/that/the UpperCamelCase
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<another-user>
edgar-rft: that's it, thank you!
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<aeth>
(In anticipation of being pinged 5 hours from now, yes, you can technically have a class named |Foo| in CL. No, you shouldn't do that and I think anyone who reviews pull requests on Github/Gitlab/etc. would fail such code.)
<aeth>
(Unless it's some really niche case that's interacting with foreign code or a database or something.)
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<mgsk>
I have some slot that has :TYPE SIMPLE-VECTOR. On SBCL, if I try to initialize that slot with (make-array 0 :adjustable t :fill-point 0) (i.e. *not* simple), it works fine. On CCL however it does not, raising a type error. Is this behaviour (by the standard) implementation dependent? Obviously I should reconsider whether my type should by SIMPLE-VECTOR, but that's not my question.
<phoe>
mgsk: SBCL ignores these type declarations for typechecking purposes.
<phoe>
You can make a slot with :TYPE NUMBER and put a symbol there.
<mgsk>
u wot
<phoe>
...oh wait a second...
<mgsk>
phoe: Can you elaborate on why SBCL does this? Also does the standard not require that type info is respected?
<phoe>
It used not to do that
<phoe>
I'm confused now - don't mind me
<aeth>
phoe: If (debug 3) is enabled it will check
<mgsk>
aeth: which part is a terrible antifeature? That SBCL does or doesn't always respect :type?
<aeth>
You could also wrap the defclass in a (debug 3) declaration, but that could have other effects, and it wouldn't fix this behavior on other implementations that might behave differently and never check :type
<aeth>
mgsk: It's terrible that it has the capability to check type in a defclass slot, but doesn't normally do it. Especially since it's the most reliable implementation for defstruct typechecking.
<mgsk>
aeth: I'm guessing it chooses not to typecheck for efficiency's sake? i.e. if you want type checking, you have to opt-in to the run-time slow down?
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<aeth>
but the only reason to put :type is if you want it to be checked imo
<aeth>
maybe don't check with (safety 0) and that's in line with the rest of the compiler
<aeth>
SBCL singlehandedly makes people reimplement a(n apparently optional) part of the standard because the default settings on the most popular implementation (SBCL) don't respect :type
<mgsk>
Damn. And I was getting along so well with SBCL
<mgsk>
ty for the info aeth, phoe
<phoe>
if the standard doesn't define something then define it yourself
<phoe>
use the MOP for that just like aeth linked
<aeth>
SBCL is normally the implementation to use if you want type information to be respected in a reasonable way, like in structs, declarations, etc. Pretty much everywhere except defclass
<aeth>
But it focuses on types-for-efficiency, which is why they probably don't care with defclass slots
<mgsk>
defclass is inefficient?
<aeth>
Absolutely.
<aeth>
It's incredibly dynamic.
<phoe>
CLOS is a runtime object system with a lot of parts that are always modifiable
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<phoe>
that's why it's flexible and bendy
<phoe>
but also why some things simply cannot be optimized away into simple pointer lookups and such
<aeth>
defstruct is often implemented like defclass, but with redefinition restrictions so things like slot access via accessors can be inlined. The catch is that this means that in some implementations you can't redefine defstruct, which hurts the typical CL interactive workflow. You also can't afaik fix things via the MOP, like you can do with defclass.
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<aeth>
define-condition also exists, for the condition system. So CL kind of has three class systems afaik.
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<shka_>
yo
<shka_>
is it acceptable to call positions in the arrays "pointers"?
<aeth>
the standard has fill-pointer
<shka_>
i think yes because fill-pointer term already exists
<shka_>
aeth: so you agree?
<aeth>
I would call it index, though
<aeth>
position could also work, but that's trickier since it might conflict with the standard function POSITION
<aeth>
(depending on how you're using it)
<shka_>
i want to call it a pointer because it is index in the array acting as a data heap
<shka_>
so it kinda is a pointer, conceptually
<phoe>
smells like indices to me
<phoe>
but then again, if you just allocate an artificial chunk of raw memory, then you effectively have pointers
<aeth>
shka_: It's only acting like a pointer if it's an array that has an element-type whose upgraded-array-element-type isn't T
<phoe>
aeth: he doesn't mean that
<phoe>
he means that he's allocated an array that serves like a virtual RAM for him
<phoe>
that's what I read
<aeth>
well, with T then it's acting like a pointer to a pointer.
<paule32>
hello
<paule32>
i have a problem/question about variable storage
<mgsk>
Any ideas as to why (bt:destroy-thread *thread*) (print (bt:thread-alive-p *thread*)) => T ?
<mgsk>
Even if I stick a lengthy sleep in there, thread-alive-p is T.
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<moldybits>
paule32: #clschool is for newbies
<paule32>
thx moldybits
<paule32>
i kicked, and banned
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<pjb>
mgsk: you cannot kill yourself.
<shka_>
don't actually check the above
<mgsk>
pjb: is that a challenge
<pjb>
mgsk: (defun destroy-thread (thread)
<pjb>
(ccl:process-kill thread))
<pjb>
(signal-error-if-current-thread thread)
<shka_>
anyway, it is true though that threads can't suicide
<shka_>
code above should signal error IMHO
<mgsk>
I don't understand. *thread* is something returned by bt:make-thread. Why wouldn't bt:destroy-thread accept that (and also do what its name suggests)?
<shka_>
it accepts, but consider where are you executing said code
<shka_>
what bt:destroy-thread will return?
<elderK>
Moin all!
<mgsk>
I'm not calling bt:destroy-thread from within the thread described by *thread*.
<shka_>
oh
<shka_>
ok
<shka_>
mgsk: sbcl on linux or something different?
<mgsk>
ccl on macos
<mgsk>
sbcl works fine
<shka_>
i see
<shka_>
maybe ccl people can help, i am to poor for mac