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<pikajude>
i just nearly got banned from an animal crossing: new leaf IRC channel for running in another user's town
<jfhbrook>
oops?
<ljharb>
i don't even know how to unpack that sentence
<jfhbrook>
are there negative consequences for going fast in someone else's space?
<jfhbrook>
also didn't know there was a new animal crossing
<pikajude>
jfhbrook: running can destroy things like flowers and moss
<jfhbrook>
oh!
<pikajude>
certain types of flowers take a lot of effort to grow
<jfhbrook>
well THAT wasn't nice of you
<pikajude>
but i didn't run over any flowers; i ran across some cobblestone to the Main Street
<jfhbrook>
*tiptoe* through the tulips!
<pikajude>
now, running under any circumstances in another user's town is strictly prohibited
<pikajude>
i said i didn't know that it was strictly prohibited and that i was sorry
<pikajude>
and the mod had a meltdown
<pikajude>
some people handle power really poorly
<jfhbrook>
you ever have to be a moderator pikajude ?
<pikajude>
i've been a moderator once or twice
<pikajude>
i'm really apathetic
<katymoe>
well, I'm back on IRCCloud for the logs...
<ec^>
fujisan: what?
<ec^>
6:39 PM <+ljharb> i don't even know how to unpack that sentence
<ec^>
6:41 PM <+pikajude> i'm really apathetic
<ec^>
the makings of a terrible moderator. :P
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<emilyrose>
wow
<ljharb>
?
<emilyrose>
quite the collection!
<emilyrose>
ljharb: I was trying to remember a thing
<emilyrose>
I remember the thing now
<ljharb>
collection of what? what thing?
<ljharb>
i is confused
<emilyrose>
ljharb: 'sok
<emilyrose>
I've got it all figured out
<pikajude>
hey, i have a question, sourced from the animal crossing channel
<emilyrose>
good luck in here
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<pikajude>
i've just been told that, as a man, it is specifically not *my* job to acknowledge sexism
<pikajude>
i'm confused. that contradicts most of what i've read about sexism
<ljharb>
um, what?
<ljharb>
no, it's definitely your job
<ljharb>
what your job is, as a man, is to inform *other men* about it
<pikajude>
i was under the impression it was my *only* job
<ljharb>
so that women don't have to do it
<pikajude>
ok
<pikajude>
yeah
<ljharb>
what your job is NOT is to say literally anything to a woman about sexism
<ec^>
er
<ec^>
no.
<ljharb>
i don't mean you can't
<ljharb>
i mean that's not your job
<ec^>
if you don't talk to women about misogyny, you're going to set up an echo-chamber where the only opinions men have of sexism, are opinions borne of other men.
<ec^>
Not helpful or productive.
<ljharb>
no
<ljharb>
that's if you don't *listen* to women about it
<pikajude>
this came up because i mentioned in passing that my girlfriend was worried that her chronic chest pain won't be taken seriously by doctors because she's a young woman
<ec^>
You can't listen without talking.
<ljharb>
pikajude: a valid concern
<ljharb>
ec^: um, what?
<pikajude>
that backfired on me
<ljharb>
you need ears to listen, you don't need a mouth
<ec^>
If you, in *any* situation, including women's rights, just take somebody else's opinion without critical thought, consideration, or debate, then you are an idiot and a sheep.
<ec^>
You should be *respectful* of women when arguing about things they *by definition* know more about than you;
<pikajude>
unless the other person is an MP in which case you acknowledge it without questioning
<ljharb>
ec^: that's all true
<pikajude>
i dunno. it's gone very poorly so far
<ec^>
but you absolutely should not 1. only talk to men about it for fear of Scaring a Woman, nor 2. just google for What Women Believe and then take that as gospel.
<pikajude>
i guess I shouldn't have even brought it up
<ljharb>
ec^: but "without critical thought or consideration" doesn't require you to speak
<ec^>
it absolutely does.
<ec^>
You must challenge, ask, determine.
<ljharb>
that's putting the burden on the woman to teach you
<ec^>
When someone speaks and someone else listens, no communication occurs; communication and instruction happen through *conversation*.
<ljharb>
and is absolutely not what people in the space recommend men do.
<ec^>
Not masturbation or a megaphone.
<ec^>
Never said the burden is on All Women to teach.
<ljharb>
the important thing isn't that you learn when you're speaking to someone who's affected by something you're not - the important thing is that you hear and believe what they have to say.
<ec^>
I never suggested you should go up to arbitrary women, who not have the time or spoons or *care* to instruct you, and beg them for instruction. |=
<ec^>
Straw-man.
<ljharb>
i think we're talking past each other
<ljharb>
i'm saying if a woman comes up to you and tries to tell you about sexism, you should think very carefully before doing anything but listening silently, and accepting it at face value.
<ljharb>
(as a man)
<ec^>
I'm saying that *when* there are women willing to teach you, you must *talk to them*, not sit and listen passively. You will get the wrong idea in your head, because you're missing information in your own perception of the universe, and then human's inescapable propensity for bias will lead you to parse each and every thing they say as *supporting* whatever
<ec^>
mis-calcuated idea you're forming,
<ec^>
and then you're going to walk away, make mistakes, and say “but that's what a *woman* told me!”
<ec^>
(sound familiar?)
<ec^>
Yeah, still totally disagree.
<pikajude>
so i definitely shouldn't have brought up my girlfriend's concerns
<ec^>
pikajude: what went poorly with whom?
<pikajude>
read up
<ec^>
Who did you bring up her problems *with*?
<ec^>
:P
<pikajude>
oh, i was just talking about how long i'd been up for
<ec^>
“this came up because i mentioned in passing <to whom> that my girlfriend”
<pikajude>
well
<ec^>
Ugh. Sorry if I seem confrontational.
<pikajude>
it's ok, i'm used to it
<pikajude>
i was talking about being up for a long time
<pikajude>
because i'd made some kind of basic misunderstanding
<pikajude>
one of the mods asked why i'd been up for so long
<pikajude>
i said
<pikajude>
we'd been at the hospital, etc.
<ec^>
I try, really hard, to absorb or fit in with a lot of the … liberaler(?) viewpoints of the circles I run in; but the (well, what I perceive as) liberal propensity to just *accept*, without consideration or conversation, absolutely sickens me. It's something I have a very, very hard time just letting slip by without bringing it up. |=
<pikajude>
i mentioned (in passing) her concerns
<pikajude>
and they reacted poorly
<pikajude>
"thanks for mansplaining that to us"
<jfhbrook>
this is a lot of stuff
<pikajude>
i'm confused by the reaction
<pikajude>
and i'm upset because i thought it'd be a channel full of kindred spirits
<jfhbrook>
I'm also confused by that reaction pikajude, what venue was that?
<pikajude>
oh well
<pikajude>
it's in an animal crossing: new leaf IRC channel
<pikajude>
after i'd said that, one of the mods asked if i was autistic
<ec^>
I'm → ← this far from being an MRA when it comes to the conversation about ‘white knights’ or ‘betas.’ As offensive and fucking useless as those terms are, it's by far the most salient point that the MRA sphere has: So, so, so many ‘allies’ seem to be parroting statements they read off of Ashe Dryden's twitter or some such without a thought.
<ec^>
I *can't honestly accept* that I could be the only male who's simultaneously 1. trying to be less than a misogynistic douchebag, *and* 2. sees how much damage that shit does? /=
<pikajude>
i guess it's easier to tell than you'd think
<ec^>
pikajude: I'm confused. Is this a … women's space? Who were you explaining it to, and how much depth did you go into?
<pikajude>
idk if it's a women's space
<pikajude>
the three mods i've talked to are women
<pikajude>
seems to be the target audience for the game
<jfhbrook>
ec^: tell me about white knights and betas
<pikajude>
i didn't "explain" anything; i said "she's been having chronic chest pain, and she's a young woman so she's fucked as far as medical professionals *listening* to her"
<ec^>
Yeah, I'm kinda with ljharb in that you could have … thought that through better >,<
<pikajude>
more or less
<pikajude>
yeah
<pikajude>
guess so
<ec^>
Like I'd have probably made the same mistake?
<jfhbrook>
I, uhh
<jfhbrook>
I'm still not sure what the mistake was
<ec^>
But I can also see how I'd have immediately regretted it, and wished I'd typed something like “and <she's worried> that as a young woman …”
<pikajude>
sure
<pikajude>
i guess filtering it through a relativist lens could have helped
<pikajude>
though i'm still confused
<pikajude>
the point of contention seems to be me speaking a situation of established sexism as fact rather than perception
<pikajude>
not that i'm saying they're wrong
<ec^>
I don't think what the mods *did* is somehow universally, morally *right*; but I do think it was *predictable*, and I do think that speaking of ‘what a man's job is’ when it comes to things like this, well, one of those jobs is to have infinite patience for the snapping of women who've spent their lives being hurt and offended.
<pikajude>
it's just absolutely contrary to anything else i've stumbled upon
<ec^>
Like, does that make sense? Maybe they're not in the right; but it was 1. predictable, and 2. not *wrong*. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<pikajude>
sure
<ec^>
jfhbrook: In what way?
<pikajude>
the original mod has already been treating me poorly, though
<jfhbrook>
I loosely agree with ec^, I actually do think mods should be on the hook for being understanding and/or giving the benefit of the doubt
<pikajude>
either there's some personal resentment established or i'm more woefully socially inept than i thought
<pikajude>
nothing new there
<jfhbrook>
and I think they could have been more understanding
<ec^>
jfhbrook: I dunno. I think “Woman in 2015” trumps “+v in an IRC channel” in terms of … obligations and excuses and pain and rules?
<jfhbrook>
but yes, it sounds like their reaction was predictable and understandable
<ec^>
If they were getting paid, maybe not so much so. But that's a volunteer position. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<jfhbrook>
I mean, kind of?
<ec^>
I'd also like to point out there's zero women involved in *this conversation*, and that's making me uncompfortable, so,
<jfhbrook>
like sure, I care more about making women uncomfortable than I do about making some rando with a @ next to their name uncomfortable
<ec^>
jfhbrook: Happy to elaborate on my nigh-MRA viewpoints when it comes to ‘allies’ some other time. I'm headed out with a few children to drink margaritas, I'll be back later. /=
<jfhbrook>
and I care more about making women uncomfortable than I do making men uncomfortable, sure
<jfhbrook>
have fun
<jfhbrook>
and yeah, I'd be interested in that ec^
<ec^>
VanguardVivian: opinions on the above? ↑
<jfhbrook>
I think my thoughts in terms of moderation are unusual
<jfhbrook>
Keep in mind, I do think there are explicit boundaries, like if you have a strong rule and you make that clear and it's strongly broken, no holds barred
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<Aria>
Coming in late here, but ljharb has a perhaps too absolutely stated good point. Listen to us about sexism. We don't need to hear it. We certainly don't need debate. In fact, men debating without listening for a long while first makes me want to get out a pack of matches.
<Aria>
It's the descent into debate that gets so tired so fast.
<Aria>
'cause 99.9% of the time what you're saying isn't noecl.
<Aria>
novel, rather.
<Aria>
Not new, not news, not a clever insight.
<jfhbrook>
Aria: I agree insofar as I trust a woman's opinion of sexism more than I do a man's everything else being equal, but isn't it also good to at least ask questions, even if they're "but what about x" ?
<jfhbrook>
even if "but what about x" is a pretty basic and reasonably-easy-to-answer question?
<jfhbrook>
I'm in no position to mansplain feminism, obviously, that's not what I mean at all
<Aria>
If it's a place where someone's taken on teaching and the questions are in good faith? Yes.
<Aria>
That's not debate. :)
<jfhbrook>
right, I'm not talking about ruining a foaf's pro-x facebook post
<jfhbrook>
or asserting that feminists are Wrong™
<jfhbrook>
I guess I see "debate" as a pretty loose term that includes what some people would call "discussion"
<jfhbrook>
if you see debate as trying to "win," I don't really see how that can be in good faith
<jfhbrook>
idk maybe I'm wrong
<Aria>
Heh. I'd make debate a subset of discussion, not vice versa. Structured, argument-centered discussion.
<gkatsev>
debate is often connotated more harshly
<gkatsev>
probably argument > debate > discussion
<gkatsev>
though, they are technically all synonymys (or can be)
<gkatsev>
*synonyms
<Aria>
Heh. Too much of a descriptivist here to prescribe on 'technically'. ;-)
<Aria>
But yeah, how they get used is what makes things clear or not :)
<Aria>
But yeah. The adversarial tendency of debate is specifically a lot of labor, often highly emotional.
<Aria>
It's taxing in ways that society expects us to give and give and give and give, for free.
<Aria>
There is also an unending tendency for men to argue with people's lived experiences, even when not generalized. That gets played in there way too often.
<jfhbrook>
I try not to argue with lived experiences
<jfhbrook>
obviously there are cases where somebody lived through x and therefore reached conclusion y which doesn't make sense in greater context z
<jfhbrook>
but it's usually pretty obvious when that applies
<jfhbrook>
and you wouldn't argue that x didn't happen
<ljharb>
i think that's where i was trying to focus
<ljharb>
that i, personally, as well as most men i interact with, have a strong strong natural tendency to argue against others' lived experiences simply because i/we haven't lived them
<ljharb>
and it's super super hard to adjust that behavior
<ljharb>
and one "easy" way of doing it is to literally not speak :-p
<ljharb>
(not that i'm good at not speaking)
<Aria>
f^
<Aria>
That's actually a pretty good way to look at it.
<jfhbrook>
reading the nodejs scrollback, ljharb ?
<ljharb>
lol yes
<purr>
lol
<ljharb>
but yeah, half the fights i have with my spouse are about what i mentioned above. a failure to recognize that something is valid because they feel it, not just when i can identify with it.
<jfhbrook>
there are benefits to being single <_<
<ljharb>
it's really really difficult to change that behavior and it's really really critical to do so, in all aspects of life
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<ljharb>
jfhbrook: there most certainly are! but one of the benefits of being not single is that you're kind of forced to learn how to interact with another human on every level
<jfhbrook>
I did that once
<ljharb>
having a roommate you're also friends with can cover many of those things too
<jfhbrook>
no roommate anymore either \o/ my old roommate was an asshole
<jfhbrook>
ahh, the life of a moderator
<jfhbrook>
you're doing great ljharb you're showing much patience
<ljharb>
lol thanks
<purr>
lol
<ljharb>
i just finished watching the 6th star wars and i've had some whisky, so i've got some patience to spare
<ljharb>
(my spouse and i watched all 6 over the last 7-8 days in preparation for the 7th)
<jfhbrook>
You liked Jedi that much?
<jfhbrook>
oh you haven't seen it yet??
<ljharb>
not 7, no
<ljharb>
i have had to mute SO MANY TWEETS
<jfhbrook>
I BET
<jfhbrook>
I'd be happy to discuss when you've seen it, if by some miracle you can't find anyone else with an opinion lmk
<ljharb>
lulz, thanks
<ljharb>
i already love the "jar jar is palpatine's sith master" theory and the "luke turned sith in episode 5 but killed the emperor anyway" theory
<ljharb>
so if either of those is not disproven by episode 7 i will be pleased
<jfhbrook>
no comment
<ljharb>
thank you :-D
<gkatsev>
ljharb: there are 6 star wars movies?
<ljharb>
yes yes phantom menace counts, it's not that bad, deal_with_it.gif
<gkatsev>
it really is, though
<jfhbrook>
I still want to watch the 4/5/2/3/6 order
<ljharb>
wait, i thought machete is 4/2/3/5/6
<ljharb>
it's 4/5/2/3/6?
<jfhbrook>
yeah
<jfhbrook>
because 5 is when you get the big reveal
<ljharb>
ah, hm, that makes sense
<gkatsev>
because you can't see the "father" reveal
<jfhbrook>
and then 2 and 3 fill the gaps
<ljharb>
modified machete then is 4/5/1/2/3/6
<gkatsev>
jfhbrook: I did that with my gf. She barely remembers the OG trilogy. She doesn't remember 2/3
<ljharb>
phantom menace is the worst of all of them, but it's really not that horrible.
<jfhbrook>
the podracing video game was pretty good
<gkatsev>
except ep 1 has no point in existing (other than topher grace's cut) the other two are just horrible but at least serve a point
<gkatsev>
a movie that has someone try to flirt with a line like "I like sand" just cannot be good.
<jfhbrook>
wait
<jfhbrook>
what
<jfhbrook>
which movie was that?
<gkatsev>
jfhbrook: the second
<jfhbrook>
goodness
<gkatsev>
oh, sorry
<jfhbrook>
I totally checked out the 2nd and didn't even really bother with the 3rd tbhirlimo
<gkatsev>
it's "I don't like sand". That's better, right?
<gkatsev>
(also, topher grace's cut of ep1 is ~20 minutes shorter and changes the focus to obi-wan as the protagonist. Supposedly it makes it actually decent)
<jfhbrook>
hahahahahaha
<jfhbrook>
oh that's painful
<ljharb>
wait what do you mean topher's cut
<jfhbrook>
"soft and smooth.................."
<gkatsev>
ljharb: he recut it privately, obviously he can't release it
<jfhbrook>
wait, topher grace of all people has a cut of ep1?
<ljharb>
so some random actor allegedly made some private cut of a movie where it's "good" and that's a thing people know about how?
<katymoe>
ec^: so do you pay monthly for IRCCloud?
<krainboltgreene>
They have a free and paid plan.
<ec^>
katymoe: yeah
<ec^>
I feel like absolute shit.
<ec^>
On like three different levels.
<ec^>
<too drunk and/or/maybe hungover to type. be back tomorrow. I hope.>
<krainboltgreene>
Be well.
<ja>
hi
<purr>
ja: hi!
<katymoe>
hope you feel better soon, e c !
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<fujisan>
ec^: hi
<fujisan>
time lag :)
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<ec^>
o7 all
<ec^>
fujisan: lol yes
<purr>
lol
<ec^>
thanks, katymoe
<ec^>
I didn't get any sleep, I still feel like shit; but I'm no longer actively drunk-sick. ‘just’ hungover and exhausted and hungry.
<ec^>
krainboltgreene: so where'd you see something about Paws? o_O
<ec^>
krainboltgreene: other than oblique references on social media, and chatting to the people in here for years, it's not really publicized anywhere, lol, so that surprises me.
<ec^>
18:58 < micahjohnston> 8 ſ 594 231 <+fujisan> We sought out Elliot because of his previous projects and positive reputation for delivering compelling and beautiful blog designs. He did not disappoint! The project was very smooth and Elliot was meticulous in his approach, ensuring the design met our quite ambitious requirements.
<ec^>
18:58 < micahjohnston> 8 ſ 594 235 <+fujisan> ~ Mark Johnston, Microsoft
<ec^>
oh my lord, back when everybody in the channel had UJD timestamps in their irssis because of that terrible plugin I wrote
<ec^>
-sol
<purr>
ec^: 16 798 ſ 778 806
<ec^>
jesus christ, it's been a while.
<ljharb>
ec^: twas ؟
<fujisan>
:)
<ec^>
ljharb: U+061F “ARABIC QUESTION MARK” wat
<ljharb>
⸮ maybe?
<ec^>
03:40 < fujisan> i use Woof and Paws
<ec^>
03:40 < fujisan> and sometimes i will wiggle my tail
<ljharb>
it's a snark
<ljharb>
both of them should render as backwards question marks
<ljharb>
it's used to indicate irony or sarcasm
<ec^>
they do, lol
<purr>
lol
<ec^>
I've heard of the snarkmark, but never actually seen somebody try to *use* one online
<ec^>
what 'twas what?
<ljharb>
the sarcmark isn't in any fonts
<ljharb>
the snark is :-)
<ljharb>
oh, my dutch/english comment
<ec^>
jfhbrook: 'sup
<jfhbrook>
found a failing jenkins job
<ec^>
ugh remember when some furry-porn fan mistook #Paws for a furry channel?
<jfhbrook>
it's doing stupid stuff
<fujisan>
:P
<ec^>
actually I don't know why I'm asking that, none of you currently talking are old-hands
<ec^>
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS THE OTHER DAY WHEN KATYMOE WAS TRYING TO REGISTER W/ NICKSERV
<ec^>
-find D0n'sg!rl2
<purr>
ec^: Could not find `D0n'sg!rl2`.
<ec^>
-learn D0n'sg!rl2=D0n'sg!rl2
<purr>
ec^: Learned `D0n'sg!rl2`.
<ec^>
<eligrey> you would have to pay me quite a lot to live in a lab owned by ELLIOTTCABLE
<ec^>
*also* one of my favourite lines of all time
<fujisan>
:)
<krainboltgreene>
ec^: You asked me what I thought of paws, so I googled it.
<ec^>
>> Boolean 'suren'
<purr>
ec^: SyntaxError: irc:1
<ec^>
>> Boolean('suren')
<purr>
ec^: (boolean) true
<ec^>
hm
<ec^>
>> String('suren')
<purr>
ec^: (string) 'suren'
<jfhbrook>
>> console.log('butts')
<purr>
jfhbrook: undefined; Console: 'butts'
<jfhbrook>
YOU're undefined!
<ec^>
man, poor purr is really out of date
<jfhbrook>
>> process.versions
<purr>
jfhbrook: ReferenceError: irc:1
<ec^>
gkatsev and ljharb have cool docker-sandboxed babelification in *their* channel
* ec^
not bitter at all
* ec^
just over here being totally fine. totally.
<ljharb>
lol
<purr>
lol
<jfhbrook>
I'm sure you can live the dream
<ec^>
The Dream
<ljharb>
you can always pull the latest oftn-bot into purr
<ljharb>
you'll get all kinds of fancy features
<ec^>
The Dream is for purr to more robustly yell at people who call her a she
<purr>
ec^: ... call *his* a, *he*
<ec^>
see, robust af
<gkatsev>
ec^: how far has purr diverged from oftnbot? Or has it been completely re-written already?
<ec^>
ljharb: decided to stop maintaining the *actual* bot features a long time ago. Kind of intentionally letting him fester and gain a nice crusty out-of-date feeling. :3
<ljharb>
ah
<ec^>
gkatsev: If I *ever* re-write purr, it'll be because some magical combination of circumstances begat 1. this channel still being active, and 2. Paws actually existing
<gkatsev>
ec^: so, still based on ecmabot?
<gkatsev>
oftnbot
<gkatsev>
whateverbot
* ec^
nods
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ec^ is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gkatsev: point therefore being that you and I share *way* too many channels
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
some day I shall successfully absorb #inimino and #oftn into the One True IRCult. ;)
<gkatsev>
lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hey gkatsev, btw,
<gkatsev>
btw
<fujisan>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so did you like my idea
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-didja? @ gkatsev
<purr>
gkatsev: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Popularity: 3, last changed by: ELLIOTTCABLE, 602ſ 634mſ ago
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-factoid didja didja?
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Popularity: 2, last changed by: ELLIOTTCABLE, 601ſ 471mſ ago
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-factoid didja, er
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: Popularity: 2, last changed by: ELLIOTTCABLE, 581ſ 451mſ ago
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol twenty days later
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
20:24 < fujisan> I'm going to make a new language called Super Paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
20:25 < fujisan> a derivative of Paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
20:26 < fujisan> Super Paws will have Xcode synchronistic applicable compatibility
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm, ja: you remind me a lot of fujisan
<fujisan>
nah that's an old idea
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
are *all* north-western-europeans a little wonky? :3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you seem to be a very energetic group. Maybe it's the cold temperatures, keeping you moving and thinking fast to burn off calories and stay warm.
<fujisan>
my idea to seek out a coding genius to hack human vision and enhance human vision, and also have an 8bit modus for the dull parts in life, and ultra vision for the good parts
<fujisan>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i think you are the one to do it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(that's totally a real thing, though: having lived in the far-northern latitudes *and* the deep South, it's amazing how much slower people think, speak, move about, and act, in the South.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(coming to Chicago was like a breath of fresh air: everybody actually *moves* and *does things* instead of just sitting around gabbering idly.)
<fujisan>
i'm just weird because
<fujisan>
i was oxygen deprived at birth
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fujisan: according to the logs, it's due to dope :P
<fujisan>
instead of oxygen i had a lot of female fumes to breathe
<fujisan>
:P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
krainboltgreene: oh, cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
krainboltgreene: I'm curious what you took away from whatever you could find via Google.
<fujisan>
primeval dope ELLIOTTCABLE
<fujisan>
fumes of mother earth
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
holy shit there's more Spanish speakers on the planet than English speakers? *that* surprises me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I would have thought English was the second after chinese. nawp.
<fujisan>
esperanto
<fujisan>
and the south american women are worth the effort to learn it
<fujisan>
language of love :-x
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fujisan: don't think it's really appropriate to reduce the women of an entire region of the earth to their level of attractiveness to you. |=
<fujisan>
hehe
<fujisan>
fair enough
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fujisan: <3
<jfhbrook>
I thought all was fair in love
<krainboltgreene>
ELLIOTTCABLE: So the readme was a bit hard to understand, but I think that's because the concept is kinda new to me. It feels a lot like what Rubinius wanted to achieve.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I definitely learned a lot from Rubinius. (Keep the core language design as small as possible, implement as much of your goals *in terms of other goals*, instead of on their own ... so that any improvements cascade through the entire system; etc etc etc)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
other than that though it's completely unrelated.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's more like lisp, probably.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, next question,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-didja? @ krainboltgreene
<purr>
krainboltgreene: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<krainboltgreene>
It's on my TODO :)
* ELLIOTTCABLE
grins
<krainboltgreene>
So what would I achieve with it?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's built for a couple different purposes, but the two most likely relevant to you: asynch tasks (that's the overarching purpose of the paradigm, asynch from the ground up), and language development (most flavours of languages good at asynch tasks *should* be implementable on top of the Paws VM)
<krainboltgreene>
Super awesome. I'll see if I can drop
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the cool / fun / why-I-should-check-this-out part being that you don't implement on top of my work by *wholesale abstraction* (i.e. you don't write a compiler or transpiler, you don't design a whole programmer interface and then implement it in one package), you work in Paws by *incremental* abstraction (basically, language features as modules, I suppose;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the same sort of thing I-think-it-was-you-maybe talking about a couple days ago?)
<krainboltgreene>
Yah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like, you write an object system, or implement continuations, or a syntax for if/then branching, or whatever you'd like; and that should always be easily swappable for a *different* approach to that same aspect of programming.
<krainboltgreene>
Keen as hell.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yah
<krainboltgreene>
One thing I'm eager for is babylon opening it's plugin architecture.
<krainboltgreene>
This will keep me busy till then :)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like, the design is inherently slow as fuck (if you think of a scale from ‘languages with an optimizing static compiler’, through ‘JITable dynamic langauges’, to ‘non-JITable dynamic languages’ ... my work sits on a whole other tier, less-optimizable even then your average OO dynamic metaprogramming clusterfuck.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but for me a big part of the interest of the project is *social*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I really, really, really want to see how communities form and assemble and self-police, the way they do around frameworks or modules, when even the most basic of language features is a *choice*, a polarizing grouping decision you and your team actively make.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A lot of people called me crazy in 2010 for this kind of shit. It's really, really validating to see the excitement around the JSsphere about everything from macros to open / extensible transpilation; because I'm *convinced* that it's going to go well, not badly.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think all the fears of fragmentation and interoperability and etc are super-overblown or even naive: we're all adults, and skilled programmers. Having ten library-modules available to do the same task hasn't paralyzed anybody and hasn't prevented us from moving communities and products forward … I don't think having ten different object-systems, or ten
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
different if/then/else statement variations, is going to, either. I think we'll see a lot of best-practices emerge; and I think we'll all collectively learn a lot about NIH, technical debt, and when to invest effort into making choices vs. when to follow conventions blindly to Just Get It Done
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
</minirant>
<fujisan>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i have an idea
<fujisan>
imagine a spreadsheet
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ja: (where *are* you, omg, come meet fujisan)
<fujisan>
now imagine interactive chatting inside of the spreadsheet
<fujisan>
everyone being able to edit it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… so Google Docs?
<fujisan>
no more real time
<fujisan>
more 8 bit 2d
<fujisan>
more code to do animations backgrounds etc
<fujisan>
if only i could code :<
<fujisan>
im too stupid alas
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also ugh come back Wave
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I miss Wave so much
<fujisan>
yeah
<fujisan>
i remember wave
<fujisan>
i feel like crying in bed with icecream while listening to Eckhart Tolle's 'The Power of Now'
<fujisan>
nothing beats some good melancholy
<alynn>
I miss Google Buzz
<fujisan>
and the guiltfree trip to eat icecream
<fujisan>
i miss paltalk
<alynn>
disclosure: I don't miss Google Buzz
<fujisan>
oh wait nvm that's online insane asylum is still a worth source for the watchers
<fujisan>
that*
<fujisan>
i'm watching a conspiracy theory docu about peak oil
<fujisan>
not bad
<fujisan>
it was better the first time when i was more fearful
<fujisan>
this is the docu that i blame for never getting my driverslicence
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eligrey: but really, what part of town? We might be able to meet up on one of my visits
<eligrey>
omg #fashion2016 start your looms
<eligrey>
i just read your twitter
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lolol yep
<purr>
lolol
<eligrey>
before that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Weird thing:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the second, weird-ified version of the tweet is *also* blowing up ... but in a **completely different group of people**
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
there's a neat societal observation to be made here ...
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: how often do you san into frisco?
<eligrey>
francisco*
<eligrey>
i can even now
<eligrey>
cant
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh as rarely as possible, but not all that rarely 'cuz I really like emily and natasha, lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
maybe once every two years at the outside; once every six months at the most?
<eligrey>
the prices aren't too insane
<eligrey>
if you get a job there too
<eligrey>
also how are you not living in the future yet with soylent 2.0 replacing 50% of your diet?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
50%, nah. 10%, maybe.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I like food and have money. Soylent is a convenience for me.
<eligrey>
i like the taste of soylent
<eligrey>
crazy enough
<eligrey>
well not 1.x, just 2.x
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Me too.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I got my whole family hooked on it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Gonna try to get the strippers at my place tonight hooked on it.
<eligrey>
i've been varying it a lot but usually 30% of my diet
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh, that's too much for me
<eligrey>
and some days up to 50% if i don't know what to get
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Like, the flavour is fine; even good
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I wouldn't *choose* to drink a delicious vanilla milkshake instead of a meal, even, more than once a day
<eligrey>
its fine for at least 2 bottles a day
<eligrey>
every day
<eligrey>
and you can flavor it with coffee so easily
<eligrey>
and vanilla or whatever
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Haven't tried coffee.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Best one for me has been a touch of concentrated caramel syrup.
<eligrey>
it works so well with coffee
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
reallllllly balances out and mellows the flavour.
<eligrey>
iced mochas and stuff
<eligrey>
yeah a dash of caramel is good
<eligrey>
btw my trump card: it's good for the environment
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eligrey: I'm super-obsessed with coffee, lol. I'd be super-revolted by some icky powdered coffee flavour; and I'd be even *more* squicked by ruining a good coffee/espresso-product with Soylent's flavour.
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no it's not.
<eligrey>
so if you don't drink it you hate mother nature
<eligrey>
recycle the bottles
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Those bottles, and all the byproducts of shipping that much water-mass around the U.S.? nuhhuh.
<eligrey>
the components are all easy to grow things
<eligrey>
except their bioengineered algae
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm all for Soylent, but I'm also for Prii. I love things that *look* ‘good for the environment’, but actually stick it to the enviroweenies as much as possible. </redstate>
<eligrey>
also elon musk and google will be delivering soylent with solar-charged self-driving cars
<eligrey>
so don't worry about transportation
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you can't even see the future as it envelopes you
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I fucking hate that `is not` does not work as expected in CoffeeScript
* ELLIOTTCABLE
pats eligrey
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
calm tf down eli.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh 250 interactions on these damn tweets
<eligrey>
heh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this is going to trump my OS X-tips tweets from like 2009
<jfhbrook>
....if a pants dog wore a man? what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
jfhbrook: weird-twitter-ified version of the first tweet lol
<purr>
lol
<jfhbrook>
I mean that first tweet is pretty weird too
<jfhbrook>
especially considering we all know how men wear pants
* ELLIOTTCABLE
grins
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: btw, soylent is made somewhere in sf
<eligrey>
so zero transportation pollution essentially
<eligrey>
sucks for the sf water supply though
<jfhbrook>
I mean presumably the constituent ingredients have to be delivered to sf
<jfhbrook>
and if you don't live *in* sf there's still transportation of the finished product to $town
<eligrey>
sf grows a lot of local craps
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
jfhbrook: my environmental complaint is about 2.0 involving shipping a lot of water-mass for user-experience purposes
<eligrey>
crops*
<eligrey>
they don't give a fuck about their water usage
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which *I* think is great: please, please reduce this planet to molten slag in the pursuit of human happiness and/or laziness.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but still, people claiming Soylent is environmentally-sound are kook'in.
<eligrey>
i don't care about using all of the water in california
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eligrey: “sf grows a lot of local craps” wat.
<purr>
beep.
<eligrey>
as long as we eventually start solar powered ocean desalination
<eligrey>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i mean i see a huge amount of 'locally grown' produce
<eligrey>
when i go to all of the grocery stores in sf
<eligrey>
and farmers markets
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
actually, preferably, reduce this planet to an ashen barren rock in pursuit of getting us to *other* worlds.
<eligrey>
if we're uploads i don't care where we live as long as there is a constant source of energy
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Humans make a better virus than they do a symbiotic parasite.
<eligrey>
matrioshka brain me up
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
‘uploads’ lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
have fun committing effective suicide on a philosophical point.
<eligrey>
the point of life is to live, not to "keep everything as you found it you virus"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It always makes me re-examine my beliefs when I agree with you.