<whitequark>
and other articles on his blog, they're excellent
<whitequark>
I just realized that the textbook notion of 'particle-wave duality' is probably the most moronic explanation ever which actively inhibits any kind of understanding
<whitequark>
this guy's (and modern physics' in general) explanation is what really made it click for me:
<whitequark>
so, an electron (for example) is a wave, period. so there's absolutely nothing surprising that it can pass through two slits simultaneously, then interfere with itself and hit the detector: after all, waves totally do that
<whitequark>
however, that wave can only exist in certain configurations. there's no "half an electron" configuration: there's only an "electron" or "nothing" ones. that's what makes it a quantum, and also what gives it particle-like properties.
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<alexgordon>
hm where's cloudhead when you need him
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<cuttle>
whitequark: right, yeah
<cuttle>
whitequark: it's way cool
<joelteon>
the beatles are really good
<cuttle>
joelteon: hell yeah
<cuttle>
:p
<cuttle>
was listening to white album yesterday
<joelteon>
it's just pop rock
<joelteon>
but it's really good pop rock
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
very groundbreaking pop rock
<cuttle>
lots of their one-offs are now genres
<cuttle>
alexgordon: hi
<alexgordon>
hi cuttle
<alexgordon>
cuttle: let's talk about proglangs
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<cuttle>
alexgordon: yeah definitely
<alexgordon>
cuttle: my dream is to one day be rich enough that I can just sit on a tropical island writing compilers
<cuttle>
haha :p
<alexgordon>
actually probably rich enough to do that now
<alexgordon>
tropical islands aren't expensive to live on!
<cuttle>
haha
<alexgordon>
but yeah, SPJ is my idol
<alexgordon>
I'd love to have his job, except for the working for microsoft bit
<cuttle>
he's not my idol because he has a lot of dumb ideas
<cuttle>
but yeah
<alexgordon>
cuttle: everybody has dumb ideas
<alexgordon>
even steve jobs!
<alexgordon>
remember the itunes boombox?
<cuttle>
lol
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
ihomes are everywhere
<cuttle>
so i mean a similar thing is everywhere
<cuttle>
but yeah steve jobs did have dumb ideas
<cuttle>
but yeah spj ruined haskell
<cuttle>
couldve been good
<alexgordon>
lol
<alexgordon>
yeah, damn that lazy eval
<cuttle>
no, that conception of side effects
<alexgordon>
cuttle: ok if not SPJ, why not sqlite gyu?
<cuttle>
not familiar with him
<alexgordon>
he even DOES live on a tropical island
<cuttle>
SPJ perpetuates the stupid "pure programs can only make a computer hot" misunderstanding
<cuttle>
when you have expressions you can evaluate, having communications happen upon the event they are evfaluated is not the only fucking way to communicate
<alexgordon>
oh actually he doesn't, I thought he lived on hawaii
<cuttle>
are you interested in discussing proglangs at all
<cuttle>
because now i'm not
<cuttle>
not available in my country
<alexgordon>
I think cuttle needs a spliff
<trolling>
cuttle: there there, lie back and think of categories
<trolling>
monads everywhere
<cuttle>
alexgordon: you start the conversation wanting to genuinely talk about languages, and then transition to saying stupid shit to make me mad
<cuttle>
which, actually, is literally every fucking time you've said you want to learn paws
<cuttle>
etc.
<alexgordon>
cuttle: you said it yourself, in C a function is just a push and a jump
<alexgordon>
somewhere along the line we started adding more meaning to it
<alexgordon>
I feel like we lost something there
<cuttle>
*you* wanted it to be something different and more abstract
<cuttle>
when you wanted array indexing to be a function
<cuttle>
because in C you don't want array indexing to be a push and a jump
<cuttle>
you want it to be a pointer dereference
<alexgordon>
well... it can be both
<alexgordon>
in fact in C the compiler will inline stuff
<alexgordon>
so the example works (it just needs templates)
<alexgordon>
I do like that in haskell you can do (+1) and do partial application on "built in" operators
<cuttle>
then even in c, a function is not just a push and a jump
<alexgordon>
it's a push and a jump or less
<cuttle>
the thing is though, from a denotational point of view, that's not at all simple or elegant
<cuttle>
it's simple or elegant given that you have this massively complicated x86 machine in your assumptions
<alexgordon>
lol ok but I think you're missing the pigeon from the trees
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
...is that an expression?
<alexgordon>
cuttle: nope
<cuttle>
then do you mean that i'm looking down from too high of an abstraction
<cuttle>
or not seeing the forest for the trees
<alexgordon>
not sure, this was 10 minutes ago
<cuttle>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
look I just really like functions - so much that I want to make whole programs out of them, and I like functions to be pushes and jumps like in C -- nothing super complex
<cuttle>
all right
<cuttle>
the problem is that that is super complex
<cuttle>
x86 is super complex
<cuttle>
even arm is super complex
<alexgordon>
yeah but it's not complex for me because I'm not involved in that stuff
<alexgordon>
it's the opposite of a leaky abstraction
<cuttle>
and basically, that's how you already write progrmas
<cuttle>
in c or python or anything
<alexgordon>
yeah but the difference between C and Python is that in Python people worry about having "too many function calls"
<alexgordon>
whereas in C people don't give a shit. that's freedom, man
<cuttle>
anyway
<cuttle>
going back to your straw man of me
<cuttle>
getting offended at side effects
<cuttle>
actually
<cuttle>
i have to go do things
<cuttle>
bye
<alexgordon>
lol I didn't mean offended as in "you write a strongly worded letter about it"
<purr>
lol
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<whitequark>
cuttle: in C function call, or array indexing, is not a push and a jump or a dereference
<whitequark>
it's an operation which has the semantics defined by the C abstract machine. it can be translated in any way the compiler wants.
<whitequark>
and it frequently will be, duh
<alexgordon>
that's a mathematician's answer if I ever saw one ;)
<whitequark>
alexgordon: but it's practically significant
<alexgordon>
maybe
<whitequark>
C can and will inline functions. Or partially inline functions. Or eliminate subexpressions. Or...
<alexgordon>
there's semantics, implementation details, then there's the implementation details that leak through into semantics
<whitequark>
and it will try to access arrays with vector operations, and so on
<whitequark>
it's not that you're fundamentally wrong, C is just a shitty example
<alexgordon>
the precise code that a C program compiles to is irrelevant to me (most of the time), but the fact that it's not say... a ruby message send is relevant a lot of the time
<whitequark>
if you compile ruby with a proper vm (jvm, pypy, ...) it stops being relevant too
<alexgordon>
lol I knew you'd say that
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
nah
<alexgordon>
because I'm a cheap bastard
<alexgordon>
and impatient
<alexgordon>
so I want to get the max out of my code
<alexgordon>
to run on the measly hardware I ahve
<whitequark>
that's more due to static/dynamic distinction
<alexgordon>
it's not any one thing really
<alexgordon>
e.g. having unsigned helps a lot, even though I hate it
<alexgordon>
plus being able to write my own allocators
<whitequark>
unsigned?
<alexgordon>
no unsigned ints on the jvm
<whitequark>
so?
<alexgordon>
it's useful
* alexgordon
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
not sure how it makes your code faster
<alexgordon>
well, try writing a chess engine without unsigned and report back ;)
<alexgordon>
I remember the jgit developer said that unsigned is the main reason it's slower than git
<whitequark>
tl;dr: java has a shitty object model. not news really
<whitequark>
the cost you pay in C is that it's an incredibly leaky abstraction. you pretend to write for the C abstract machine, because otherwise the compiler will fuck you over, but actually you write for a certain architecture (or worse, several ones at once)
<whitequark>
that's also a reason most projects trying to be "as fast as C" are doomed to remain in the same place
<joelteon>
sooooooo
<joelteon>
resolving dependencies is pretty hard
<joelteon>
at least if you're dumb like me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: I've gotta say: if you haven't already worked with your bank and arranged for that transfer, I can easily sell the rest of my inventory in five seconds, here. For more than twice what you've offered me. /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's been a couple days, and I haven't heard from my bank, sooooo …
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: errrrrr, didn't you get my email?
<alexgordon>
do you EVER check your emails elliott?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ahhh, haven't been online in days. I'll go look.
<alexgordon>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: well I'm willing to buy them at $242 if you want ;)
* ELLIOTTCABLE
laughs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, no. I'm gonna just trade them off right now, then.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
related:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
my bank shat itself, at the large transfer.
<alexgordon>
LOL
<yorick>
alexgordon: it's totally a good deal :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(the rest of the inventory, not you)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: looks like I made you $8k then ;)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I was telling micah earlier. I want to go live on a tropical island and write compilers
* ELLIOTTCABLE
laughs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, cuttle
<alexgordon>
...also project BOAT which I'm not allowed to talk about :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lost my debit card
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sucks
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
especially-much because it currently has ALL of my bitcoin spoils on it >,>
<alexgordon>
.... have you cancelled it?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
got on the line with my favourite investment advisor the other day. I'm opening a new investment account, specifically for my profits from the 2013 Bitcoin Wobbles™.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Gonna call it my Wobble Account.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
see how much I can accrue in total from that endeavor.
<alexgordon>
I think you've accrued plenty
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, it's Simple, it took two tap on my phone, literally.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nah, I want to accrue plenty more. There's no such thing as enough money.
<alexgordon>
...can I marry you?
* alexgordon
is trying a new line of work as a gold digger
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: when did you buy your bitcoins, out of interest?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I bought in for the first time *right* before the big bubble in April. Whenever they were around $70-90
<alexgordon>
I got mine for nothing, so my % return so far has been infinite ;)
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: oh cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I didn't buy many, at all. But I sold them at 300-something, I forgot exactly how much, and made a huge profit. Bought back in at 90.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can't remember exactly, but I've invested less than a couple thousand, total.
<alexgordon>
I'm kicking myself for not buying any in 2012. I just can't work out how I managed to let a whole year go by o_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as in, *originally*. I bought back in probably 8,000 worth, but all of that (I think? Would have to sit down and check exact history and numbers) was profits from the original bubble
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think I'm going to pull out *entirely*. I mean, 400$ apiece is just to juicy to sit out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which would net me … well, a fuckton *more*.
<alexgordon>
you won't be saying that in 10 years when it's at $1m ;)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
when we're trading satoshis for hundos?
<alexgordon>
yeeeeeep
<alexgordon>
I'm just going to hold mine forever
<alexgordon>
so in that respect they're worth nothing!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well, I've reduced mine to a liquid asset, now. Time to make use of that.