sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
nephyrin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanWeen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanWeen is now known as DeanGuss
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ddustin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
weez17 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Dean_Guss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanGuss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
rusty has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Changing host]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Client Quit]
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
DougieBot5000 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cory has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Cory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ddustin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dean_Guss has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ddustin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
CryptoDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dean_Guss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dean_Guss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Dean_Guss has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanWeen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dean_Guss has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CryptoDavid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
e4xit has quit [Quit: quit]
e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Belkaar_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
deusexbeer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
deusexbeer has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
DeanWeen has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DeanWeen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
thomasan_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
deusexbeer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
wfbarksdale has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dvknv has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
dvknv has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esotericnonsens_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
DeanWeen has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
esotericnonsense has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
esotericnonsens_ is now known as esotericnonsense
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
esotericnonsense has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
esotericnonsense has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Quit: kbc]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kbc has quit [Client Quit]
kbc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
luke-jr has quit [Excess Flood]
luke-jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
<adam3us>
so new thought re the P2[W]PKH/P2[W]SH and PQ crypto security via the fact that they are hashed. in the case that an HD key is reused, it occurs to be one could use a ZK proof of knowledge of the chain code and
<adam3us>
master key of the even publicly revealed coin private key. (and the ZKP would commit to the scriptPub)
<adam3us>
in the reuse case it's not PQ secure, however in the event that in some decades powerful enough Quantum Computers became available to be a threat to 256bit DL, then other methods of spending these address types could be soft-fork blocked
<sipa>
i can't parse your sentences, but it's known that if we have some form of PKH a future hard fork could permit spending through a pcq zkproof
<gmaxwell>
if thats relevant or not is unclear given the majority of circulating funds are stored in reused addresses.
<adam3us>
right that much is read. but let's consider the case that an HD key has been respent. it's public derivation is something like pk2=H(chaincode,2)G+MPK
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adam3us>
in that case you could make a transferable proof of ownership of the chain code using a ZKP even if the private key of pk2 is published
<adam3us>
i really wish people would not reuse but unfortunately people do. even been forced to do it myself by exchange deposit (some limit the number of deposit addresses or can't change) and mining payouts also typically you'd have to update manually
<adam3us>
but other than the ongoing attempt to stamp out address reuse (so don't do that, it is it's own reward)
<gmaxwell>
adam3us: right the other hd derrived keys are not effect IF the chaincode is private.
<gmaxwell>
though lots of things end up publishing chaincodes, handing them to scanning servers, etc. (e.g. the blockchain.info wallets work that way, just to give one example)
<adam3us>
the other thing it occurs to me that this may buy is another alternative or tool/building block re real_or_random and jl2012 two stage commitment approaches.
<adam3us>
but ZKP is already an alternative to that "poor-mans-approach" that doesnt need a zkp.
<adam3us>
gmaxwell: yes samourai sentinel is another tool (read only wallet that accepts Xpub and Ypubs) it's quite handy. but it does tell their server that info, similar to bci.
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adam3us>
any ZK dependant approach would need a PQ safe ZKP scheme. i dont know much about those. so I guess that is the advantage of the two stage commitment approaches
<adam3us>
gmaxwell: it could be useful if the private keys of taproot and graftroot had the hash preimage property, eg had an extra hash in their internals before use or maybe they are derived from HD schemes anyway
<adam3us>
(to preserve this argument/defense)
wfbarksdale has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<adam3us>
if we assume that 256-bit ECDSA will become realistic in a few decades, IMO ideally we find a privacy preserving scheme to migrate todays utxo set into, to hide which keys have moved; otherwise satoshi's (and other bare PK) keys could be forced to move, or be face being blocked to prevent theft.
e4xit has quit [Quit: quit]
dvknv has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<sipa>
adam3us: as long as significant fraction of funds are stored in outputs with known public keys (through reuse, or through known hd derivation), a realistic CQ is a very severe threat to bitcoin
<sipa>
even if your own coins are safe, having large amounts of the currency's supply for grabs isn't a healthy situation, and not really resolvable
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adam3us>
sipa: right. i am thinking a future debate about this might conclude that it is better to block from spending coins with addresses with known public keys via ECDSA spending method.
<sipa>
i again can't parse
<adam3us>
better to block than see stolen. close to a proof of burn. people do have solutions at hand, stop reusing addresses and software & services to adopt practices that make that easier.
<adam3us>
tldr better for known public key addresses to be blocked via soft-fork than be stolen.
dvknv has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa>
that may be the only option if QC is a reality, but it is incredibly invasive still
<adam3us>
agree. i have spoken to early miners who do not move their coins, because of privacy or desire to not expose their IT systems to risk.
<adam3us>
if there were in some years a new utxo model that could provide better privacy, maybe some of those people would move them.
e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adam3us>
some are quite technical but not moving on purpose. some people like to do yearly practice spends and move to new HD keys annually. others like to not touch coins long term.
<adam3us>
for example some did not claim forks for this kind of reason.
<adam3us>
are taproot/graftroot keys bare PK format?
e4xit has quit [Quit: quit]
Murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
enemabandit has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
e4xit has quit [Quit: quit]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
spinza has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Murch has quit [Quit: Plugging out.]
ddustin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jaamg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Jaamg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
pinheadmz has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wfbarksdale has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wfbarksdale has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ddustin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]