#bitcoin-wizards on 2018-12-13 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:31 <rusty> jl2012: I was wrong about eltoo, retraction coming...

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00:33 <aj> rusty: ?

00:33 <rusty> aj: I said on-list that eltoo can commit to the script (ie; doesn't need OP_MASK), it can't.

00:34 <aj> rusty: ah. yup

00:38 <rusty> OK, I'm pretty sure OP_MASK is complexity we don't want. Fight! :)

00:41 <aj> rusty: fwiw, OP_MASK moves me from kinda-uncomfortable with NOINPUT to completely okay with it. Also, smells like elderberries in here...

00:41 <rusty> aj: I think it's window dressing.

00:42 <rusty> It makes people feel better, without actually solving a problem.

00:43 <aj> rusty: i'm not sure how to turn this into a technical debate. non-technically: "Removing it makes people feel worse, without actually solving a problem" ?

00:44 <aj> rusty: the "problem" that it solves is having the signature commit to as much about the transaction as is actually possible, which seems like it should always be good practice

00:44 <rusty> aj: I think it's more "this adds complexity, thus requires justification"? When I actually analyze what it gains us (from an Eltoo perspective), the answer is "very little".

00:45 <sipa> rusty: i like aj's perspective; you're arguing for removing a protection, which needs justification

00:45 <sipa> my view is that we shouldn't remove more protection than needed

00:45 <rusty> From an Eltoo perspective: If you don't reuse pubkeys there is no problem. If you do, OPMASK doesn't save you.

00:46 <sipa> sure, but i'm not assuming that eltoo will be the only thing using NOINPUT

00:46 <rusty> So, in the one concrete case we have, it provides no benefit. I am reluctant to endorse complexity unless such benefit can be pointed out.

00:47 <sipa> and you are reusing pubkeys in eltoo across scripts - you've just reasoned enough to know that this is safe

00:47 <sipa> with masking, you don't need that reasoning

00:47 <sipa> (and in your case, it is pretty trivial)

00:47 <rusty> sipa: No, I showed with pubkey reuse it is *not safe* with masking.

00:48 <sipa> rusty: but eltoo is safe?

00:48 <rusty> sipa: if we reuse pubkeys across multiple channels, it is not.

00:48 <sipa> rusty: yes, that's reasoning

00:48 <sipa> but you are still reusing pubkeys

00:48 <sipa> just not across channels

00:49 <aj> rusty: with MASK, you can reuse the same key in a NOINPUT eltoo channel in some other non-eltoo system fairly safely; because the signature commits to the eltoo structure, so things not using that structure are immediately saved and don't have to be analysed

00:49 <gmaxwell> to make noinput safe by construction, what you'd actually want use a user provided cryptographically large nonce, that is not allowed to be reused.

00:49 <gmaxwell> But we don't want to track an ever growing used nonce list in consensus.

00:50 <rusty> aj: yeah, you're protected against the case where a normal tx and an eltoo channel have matching amounts and keys. That's all it does.

00:50 <aj> rusty: not just a "normal" tx, but any other complicated layer 2 smart contracty system as well

00:51 <rusty> sipa: I'm trying to think of a case with NOINPUT where this wouldn't be true though. NOINPUT implies you don't have control of they keys (otherwise you could just re-sign).

00:52 <rusty> aj: Meh, nonexistent software which your lightning implementation shares private keys with? I'm trying to keep the "I accidentally my UTXOs!" scenarios somewhat realistic, and I think that's getting out of bounds.

00:53 <rusty> sipa: *and* you want to rebind, implying that you are reusing at least some keys.

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00:56 <aj> rusty: you seem oddly vehement about this? OP_MASK seems fairly straightforward to me (jl2012 has a spec and i think draft implementation, which seem easy) -- is there something that will make it hard to use in lightning/eltoo somehow?

00:58 <rusty> aj: No, it's a significant change: I'd have to actually parse the scripts at signing time. At the moment (no code separator usage) I don't have to.

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00:59 <rusty> aj: I can hack it in for the special case, of course.

01:01 <aj> rusty: for lightning, with fixed scripts structures, you could just generate two scripts (the actual script and the masked variant) pretty easily afaics

01:02 <rusty> aj: yep, as I said hack it in as a massive layering violation, sure.

01:02 <rusty> The addition of complexity is eternal, so I would like to see some concrete problem we're solving. I haven't seen it.

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01:05 <rusty> In particular, it doesn't close what seems to me the most likely key reuse scenario: the same program reusing keys doing the same stuff.

01:07 <rusty> (interestingly, committing to the input amount does much more for us here).

01:11 <aj> rusty: if you wanted to allow key reuse across different eltoo channels, with OP_MASK that's possible: make the script be "<chid> OP_DROP MASK <state+1> CLTV <A+B> CHECKSIG" and your signature commits to the particular channel.

01:11 <aj> rusty: (or, same if you don't want to allow it, but want defense in depth in case you accidently do it anyway)

01:14 <rusty> aj: randomizing channel amounts a little avoids spamming the chain though...

01:15 <gmaxwell> getting security by randomizing channel amounts feels like massive overconfidence in anyone's ability to implement that correctly/consistently.

01:15 <aj> rusty: for taproot eltoo, you still don't need to parse the script afaics. the taproot branch is just "MASK <s+1> CLTV DROP <A+B> CHECKSIG" so your first six bytes are "0x55 0x04 <s+1>" and should get replaced with "0x55 0x65"

01:16 <aj> rusty: (the other branch, which has the CSV can be a scriptless-script with just a direct signature and nSequence set)

01:16 <rusty> gmaxwell: no, it'd be a belt-and-suspenders thing. You wouldn't rely on it.

01:27 <sipa> rusty: i wonder if you're overestimating how hard the masking operation is; it's just iterating through the opcodes and skipping the pushed bytes - you don't even need to know about what opcodes exist etc

01:32 <rusty> sipa: I'm implementing it now, let's see....

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02:15 <rusty> https://github.com/rustyrussell/lightning/commit/6d1eaca795a4b223dc1b5f8209fceb95a195f657 That's 80 lines of core code. Not terrible, but not great. This is the first time the codebase has ever had to parse a script beyond trivial "is this p2sh?" stuff, so it probably contains bugs.

02:16 <rusty> (Completely untested, ofc)

02:19 <rusty> Compare with 280 lines total for the current signing code, including segwit, legacy and segwith-with-sighash-single|anyonecanpay support. I think my point stands.

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04:07 <gmaxwell> rusty: for eltoo, how would a splice into an existing channel work? The spk the the funds coming in for the splice, would that be paid to a spk that is eventually going to get no-input signed for?

04:07 <rusty> gmaxwell: like all splices, you maintain both pre- and post- splice until after some agreed depth.

04:08 <gmaxwell> I guess what I'm trying to determine is this, would a splice result in a non-lightning participant paying to an address where it would be unsafe to pay twice?

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04:13 <rusty> gmaxwell: Well, we don't allow randoms to splice in; that was discussed, but was problematic (basically, splices can fail, and then what happens?).

04:14 <gmaxwell> okay so a splice in would always be coming from the user's own lightning wallet?

04:17 <rusty> gmaxwell: thinking... yes, the splice is always a mutual construction between the two sides, where each offers UTXOs & outputs, then trades signatures on new commitment tx, then finally full witnesses for its inputs.

04:18 <roasbeef> someone could also hypothetically provide an input coin join style

04:19 <rusty> roasbeef: yeah, I was thinking about that. But it's still the case that it's a normal tx, no sighash_single anywhere. Which I *think* makes it OK.

04:19 <rusty> s/single/noinput/

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04:23 <roasbeef> yeh, the splicing tx itself would prob be sighash_all, only all its descendants using fancy stuff (in the normal case)

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