sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<real_or_random>
cjd: what sipa and I are working on is actually a pseudorandom function, which I guess is not useful for PoW, because it has a secret key
<cjd>
neat
<cjd>
what is the objective which you're building it for ?
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<real_or_random>
it should be (rather) efficient to prove in a bulletproof, and this is useful in the context of musig in order to get deterministic nonces. deterministic nonces are currently not possible, see the musig paper for details of the problem
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<cjd>
real_or_random: ahh ok, multisig algorithm with deterministic nonces ? (all of this goes way over my head but at least I know sort of what it's for)
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* nsh
rereads the musig paper
<waxwing>
i guess it'll be due to the fact you have to commit to the nonces before you start.
<nsh>
can't find the paper. does someone have link to hand?
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<waxwing>
oh yeah, i did read that but forgot. if you try to repeat the construction process with a counterparty using rfc6979 you end up leaking your privkey. oopsies.
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<nsh>
heh
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<nickler>
MuSig nonce commitments aren't the problem for deterministic nonces. Usually for deterministic nonces you hash the challenge into the nonce. That is P and m for regular Schnorr. But in MuSig, the challenge is also determined by the sum of nonces which you don't know when generating your nonce. If you'd just hash P and m to generate your nonce and the second time you do that another participant changes their nonce (i.e. doesn't generate it determin
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<waxwing>
nickler, i got a cutoff at "doesn't generate it determin.."
<nickler>
istically), you will sign twice with the same nonce for a different challenge. So the solution is that you only sign if everyone proves that they have generated their nonce deterministically.
<nickler>
waxwing: thx
<nsh>
ah, neat
<waxwing>
" Usually for deterministic nonces you hash the challenge into the nonce". I don't get that. THe challenge is usually the fiat-shamir of the previous transcript, for simplest (schnorr) case that's the nonce-point itself, i.e. the commit in sigma commit-challenge-response.
<waxwing>
by that language, 'hash the challenge into the nonce' doesn't make sense.
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<waxwing>
i guess you're thinking more generally, like a deterministic nonce based on hash(privkey, message), here the message is like the challenge, is that it?
<real_or_random>
yeah I think calling it challenge is misleading
<real_or_random>
so in MuSig, R = sum of all (public) nonces, challenge = hash(R, ...). when creating the nonce deterministically, you would want to hash in the challenge (which is equivalent to hashing in R) but this creates a cyclic dependence. you can't compute this
<nsh>
[sequentially]
<nsh>
[you can computer a cyclic dependence in parallel/simultaneously but that's perhaps not germane to the discussion at hand]
<nsh>
*compute
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<real_or_random>
well, I think we're talking about different things here. you can't compute x and y such that x=H(y) and y=H(x)
<real_or_random>
where "can't compute" means "maybe such x and y don't exist but even if they exist, it's computationally hard to find them"
<nsh>
traditionally but e.g. in CT with borromean ring signatures and rewinding it's possible to something a lot like that
<nsh>
i'm not trying to suggest that it applies in the context of the musig discussion; it just chimed with other things i've been thinking about lately :)
<nsh>
[however i appear to be claiming indirectly that it is possible to computer a cyclic hash even in sha256 but i should very strongly caveat this by saying it's not possible with the kinds of computation that we are in the habit of using]
<nsh>
*compute
<nsh>
[the main still-partially-unsolved problem being what represents in some manner the astronomically large intermediary computational state that would be required without having to use astronomical amounts of physically spatiotemporarilly distinct state-bearing bits of matter]
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<waxwing>
real_or_random, i think a simpler way to say it is that you must change from "nonce is a function of privkey and message" to "nonce is a function of privkey and message and other nonce-points" to avoid reproducing k values that leads to the standard schnorr privkey leak, in this multisig interactive case, so as you say that's impossible/circular.
<waxwing>
hmm as i reached the end of that sentence the "simpler" goal was not really achieved, oh well :)
<nsh>
[the answer-being-elaborated is to appreciate that states can be relative rather than absolute-as-physically-distinct] and that relatively-ontic states can still compute on one another, and that you don't need supercooled topological unobtainum to do this]
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<nickler>
waxwing: I meant hash the challenge without own nonce
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<waxwing>
nickler, got it, thx
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