sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<maaku>
contrapumpkin: you don't want a uniform distribution. you want to hide in the anonymity set of people who transact similarly to you.
<maaku>
assuming you can't set N=infinity, which you can't
<contrapumpkin>
I'm just struggling to see much that can be correlated beyond txn times, so I'm not sure what you'd do with that knowledge
<maaku>
That was one example. Also, how many inputs and outputs, the tx graph distance of the various inputs (you can't hide the fact you're spending two of your own inputs!), any wallet software identifying tx features
<contrapumpkin>
yeah, I guess I can see there are "features"
<contrapumpkin>
I just don't see a "ground truth" to learn out of it
<contrapumpkin>
with a team going out of its way to homogenize as much as they possibly can, it seems like wallet variations will be minimal and probably removed over time
<contrapumpkin>
time is fundamentally hard to homogenize unless you want high latency
<maaku>
I have enough of a machine learning background to appreciate this as a "data-rich" environment. I personally consider CryptoNote-derived protocols fundamentally broken.
<contrapumpkin>
but I could see someday the network getting together and saying highly secure transactions only get broadcast twice a day at UTC 6 and 18
<contrapumpkin>
or something
<maaku>
CoinJoin/ValueShuffle is harder to work with, but as a result of it being interactive you get more uniformity in your anonymity set.
<contrapumpkin>
oh, I'm also quite eager to see more coinjoin, don't get me wrong
<contrapumpkin>
I just don't think monero is as fundamentally broken as you make it out to be :)
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<waxwing>
i don't follow maaku why you think that CJ + CT would be harder to do data analysis on than ring sig + CJ?
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<waxwing>
i mean the negative of interactivity for CJ (in models where it is indeed interactive) are obviously a very big deal, and if it uses more space on chain that's another negative, but that tradeoff (space) will depend on all kinds of details.
<waxwing>
but the interactivity one is really the biggie of course
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<waxwing>
why would it being interactive lead to "more uniformity in anonymity set"?
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<rusty>
maaku: exactly, how does a full node provide a compact proof that the UTXO commitment is invalid?
<rusty>
If it is, in fact, random junk. AFAICT you pretty much need the entire block.
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<maaku>
rusty: it's not a tx-validity rule?
<rusty>
maaku: Don't understand. I'm assuming a simple model, where coinbase commits to tree of all outstanding UTXOs after this block is processed. AFAICT you can't produce a compact proof that this is wrong.
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<stoffu>
maaku: >>you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep<<= Decoys in ring signatures are automatically chosen from the entirety of ever growing TXO set, with probability following a triangular distribution favoring recent outputs.
<stoffu>
Users aren't allowed to manually pick decoys because humans are bad at picking random values.
<stoffu>
And the decoy selection algorithm has nothing to do with your timezone or the time of tx creation.
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<maaku>
stoffu: you didn't understand my attack
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<stoffu>
Yeah maybe, I just didn't understand your description as I cited above.
<stoffu>
Can you explain what you meant when you said "you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep"?
<stoffu>
There's no such consideration about time zone or geography in the ring member selection algorithm.
<stoffu>
Maybe this is better suited for #monero-research-lab etc, since it's entirely irrelevant to Bitcoin.
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<instagibbs>
stoffu, no, this is completely on-topic here
<sipa>
#bitcoin-wizards really isn't about bitcoin :)
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<instagibbs>
i think monero wallets could perfectly emulate CJ style behavior(assuming smart wallets), though I may have misunderstood the attack as well
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<jb55>
has there been any work on re-introducing OP_CAT?
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<sipa>
jb55: we did that in Elememts, and it let us implement key tree sigs