sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<TD-Linux>
the only real bitcoin addresses start with a 1
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<gmaxwell>
TD-Linux: one of the BU guys was spouting some real singers that any bitcoin that had gone through segwit wasn't a bitcoin because the whitepaper defined "an electronic coin as a chain of digital signatures" and because with segwit the next transaction doesn't commit to the prior signature, a coin though segwit cannot be an electronic coin and thus not a Bitcoin. Q.E.D.
<TD-Linux>
sounds ydtm tier
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<bsm1175321>
Taek, amiller: it's best if geographic blobs cannot attack one another. One way is if they use different PoW, but that's super costly. I don't know any trustless way to achieve proximity proofs. Everything I can think of relies on trust in geographic location of a particular key.
<bsm1175321>
So back to different PoW. Mars-chain and Earth-chain achieve cross-chain atomic swaps, with timeouts related to the Earth-Mars distance.
<amiller>
meh, don't give up on the proximity-infused PoW!
<amiller>
why not require that the work has to include low-latency commitments to other work
<Taek>
and transactions?
<bsm1175321>
amiller: commitments to other work incentivize centralization and co-location.
<amiller>
well look that's inherent to the goal right
<bsm1175321>
So as to minimize the latency
<Taek>
what if there's a way to bound it? Such that less than 3 seconds latency doesn't help at all, but more than 3 seconds becomes exponentially less workable
<bsm1175321>
One big miner for Earth and Mars who can reverse my transactions if sufficiently bribed? No...that's not the goal.
<amiller>
i think you're making some quick assumption that you'd get more rewards for having this low latency
<bsm1175321>
Taek: there's no way to measure the latency without another metric, such as assuming keys are geographically distributed. So...I move all my keys to one datacenter.
<bsm1175321>
amiller: That's why I described earlier using this as a timing measurement tool but not a reward.
<Taek>
iirc amiller had a paper that showed some pow which had to be done with very low latency memory?
<Taek>
which would suggest that controlling for latency by forcing some level of message passing might be achieveable
<Taek>
and then you might be able to tune it so that there's an advantage if you can achieve low latency around transaction creators within your sphere
<Taek>
but no real disadvatage outside of that
<Taek>
basically the transaction builders paying fees would subsidize your mining, and the only way to collect those fees would be to do a lot of round trip communications with them
<Taek>
something like that
<Taek>
(yeah it's full of holes, just trying to find footholds for better ideas)
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<fluffypony>
thanks gmaxwell for the advice on how to responsibly handle disclosure of something that can be used to attack altcoins
<fluffypony>
also this has been discovered in parallel recently by a Blockstream researcher
<gmaxwell>
fluffypony: Glad to hear that it's announced now.
<gmaxwell>
This was a quite intresting vulnerablity.
<fluffypony>
yeah shows that X25519 isn't as well understood as people think
<gmaxwell>
nickler: Any interest in writing about this bug for the modern crypto curves list? It makes for a nice demonstration point for the security implications of small subgroups.
<waxwing>
oh it's a small subgroup thing. is the math written up anywhere?
<waxwing>
othe: yes, thank you, i see it was actually linked there.
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<nickler>
waxwing: remember verification of a traceable ringsig with size 1 looks like e == hash(m, s*G + e*P, s*hash(P) + e*I), where P is the pubkey and I is the key image which is supposed to be x*hash(P). Intuitively, it's very hard to create a signature for a different key image because the same `s` that is used to prove knowledge of the discrete logarithm `x` of `P` is also used for `I`.
<nickler>
However, if you replace I by I' = I + L where L is a low order point, then you can grind e until e*I' = e*I + e*L = e*I and thus you'd be able to respend the same output with a different key image.
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<BartokIT>
Hi, I have read the BIP32 HD wallet developement guide and I search for a clarification
<Eliel_>
I suspect that's a question for #bitcoin-dev. This channel is for more theoretical discussion.
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<BartokIT>
In the guide there is a mention about the capacity of auditing sharing the public key