sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Jellyfish>
Hello wizards, is Bitcoin sync or async?
<Jellyfish>
Is a sync Byzantine consensus or not?
<kanzure>
does synchronous mean violates speed of light?
<andytoshi>
Jellyfish: bitcoin does require a syncronous network (though it doesn't require messages arrive in order and some peers can tolerate several minutes or hours of delay without issue, depending how they're using the system)
<Jellyfish>
So it's weakly sync? Why is that?
<Jellyfish>
Thanks andytoshi
<andytoshi>
because that's the weakest assumption we can still get a working network on :P
<Jellyfish>
Why is it not async?
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<andytoshi>
because in an async network you can't guarantee that everyone eventually learns about all transactions, so you can't prevent double-spending (at least as far as i can see)
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<andytoshi>
i think petertodd has some ideas about sharding that can let peers get closer to async (with respect to the global blockchain) by having spenders give full proofs to receivers
<andytoshi>
but the analysis is complicated, i don't fully grok it
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<Taek>
[18:11:00] <gmaxwell> amusingly you could produce an exo-timestamper. E.g. whenever you transact you offer a timestamp server to timestamp for it. If you successfully return a useful proof to it.. it gives you tokens yous you can use to ask it to timestamp things later. :P
<Taek>
[18:11:13] <gmaxwell> and the timestamp server itself never transacts, except if no one else does for a long time.
<Taek>
[18:11:11] --> UnrealLife (~UnrealLif@93.169.153.115) has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
^ that sounds really awesome.
<Taek>
imagine adding an RPC to bitcoin nodes that just allows you to insert some data into their transactions
<Taek>
I guess this has privacy issues for the nodes opening themselves up for this type of service
<Taek>
If I may offer some thoughts on Segwit, it is my hope that the next deployment includes a UASF fallback after something like a 12 month cooldown. There are enough companies in the space supporting segwit to force it through I think
<Taek>
it just needs to be something that everyone obviously has enough time to get on board with, so there's no question which chain is the dominant one in the event of a split
<Taek>
but, I will also say that I believe Bitcoin stagnating here would be better than employing coercion or a hardfork to get more features into Bitcoin
<Taek>
UASF already makes me uncomfortable, and I actively oppose BIP148 because I don't think the deployment horizon is good enough.
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<bsm117532>
Jellyfish, andytoshi you might be interested in amiller's Honey Badger on the topic of async consensus: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/199
<amiller>
i want to see a partially synchronous blockchain protocol
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<amiller>
where the chain doesn't have a timing parameter inherently built in, but it can still be usable by people very far away
<amiller>
i was thinking of some kind of approach where the sender of each transaction "chooses" waht timeout they consider acceptable, like if you want to send a coin to mars you would indicate that you want to be on the "2 hours" level of the blockchain
<bsm117532>
amiller: I want to see a dynamically tuned timing parameter, that measures the network size...and the network slows down once you add the node on mars...
<amiller>
sucks to slow everyone down just because there's a small mars colony
<bsm117532>
Just insert a relay.
<amiller>
i still am wondering whether that's inherent or not
<bsm117532>
e.g. make hub and spoke subnets.
<amiller>
pfft, you can't bring practical shortcuts to a discussion about mars
<sipa>
how do you mean, all you need is a wormhole?
* sipa
hides
<amiller>
im hoping there's some theoretically nice solution and we can take the practical shortcuts like a relay when mars is actually colonized
<amiller>
banking financial hubs at the L2 point or something (i forget the details and don't care at the moment, lol)
<bsm117532>
Well, frankly, we should be hub-and-spoking geographic regions too. There's no reason NYC can't reach consensus independently from Tokyo. It's the timing of your cross chain atomic swaps that has to respect the network latency.
<andytoshi>
there's a tradeoff when you're using hashpower for this because you don't want e.g. london's miners to be able to wreck up montreal's consensus by virtue of their larger economy
<andytoshi>
and verifying location is veering into permissioned territory
<amiller>
i want to make a blockchain protocol that combines proof-of-work with proof-of-proximity
<amiller>
so that even if there's a lot of hashpower somewhere else, it doesn't necessarily risk overloading your nearby miners
<amiller>
"if aliens from the Andromeda galaxy are going to hurt me, then I at least want them to have to come here first!" -- Scott Aaronson
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<bsm117532>
amiller: I have thought a few times about using some form of group signature that requires different miners to cooperate -- as a means of measuring network latency or providing a "clock" to the network. It seems easy for a subset of co-located signers to create a group signature faster than the rest of the network, but perhaps this could be used to dynamically partition network regions.
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<Eliel_>
I've had this vague idea of a chain with transient mimblewimble "bubbles" that can be as local or global as the participants want them to be and can split and join with other bubbles if participants all agree.
<Eliel_>
no idea if that's actually practical though
<bsm117532>
Well with MW the split/join can be done by a 3rd party. The problem is double-spends that occur in different bubbles.
<bsm117532>
It's for this reason that I don't think my ideas about "braids" (DAG-chain) can be combined with MW. In MW a single double-spend causes a fork, and poisons any other transactions coinjoin'ed with the double-spend.
<Eliel_>
I was thinking the bubbles would be separated so that you wouldn't have to worry about other bubbles.
<bsm117532>
Eliel_: don't know how you'd accomplish that...
<Eliel_>
you'd need worldwide consensus for merges/splits of bubbles but inside the bubbles local consensus would be sufficient.
<bsm117532>
That's the problem. The "worldwide consensus" can be easily subverted by issuing a lot of double-spends at low cost.
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<Eliel_>
what if the bubble merge/split consensus wasn't itself mimblewimble style? That would be limited only within the bubbles.
<bsm117532>
Eliel_: My braid work can be described by a "merge" algorithm which combines multiple parents. As long as you can write that algorithm you can jam it into a DAG structure. But there's no way to "merge" two MW blocks that contain double-spends. You have to fully discard one of them, and any "innocent" transactions not part of the double-spend would have to be re-mined.
<bsm117532>
(and re-broadcast)
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<Eliel_>
bsm117532: in other words, you need something that'd prevent a bubble from "forking"?
<bsm117532>
Yes, and that requires de-anonymizing transactions, which is exactly opposite to MW.
<bsm117532>
You have to identify the double-spend in order to algorithmically resolve it.
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<Eliel_>
how does mimblewimble deal with that?
<bsm117532>
By not being finished yet ;-)
<bsm117532>
(actually I don't know)
<sipa>
MW doesn't deal with anything like that
<sipa>
MW makes it possible to do offline coinjoin; it's not a protocol for doing so
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<bsm117532>
How does grin deal with that then?
<sipa>
afaik, it does not intend to implement that
<sipa>
(but i'm not very up to date)
<andytoshi>
there is no protocol for unmerging things to correct double-spends, this is impossible
<andytoshi>
grin does not have noninteractive coinjoin, it's expected that users will use valueshuffle or something
<andytoshi>
which is more efficient anyway as it allows kernel merging
<andytoshi>
(i mean, miners ultimately do a "noninteractive coinjoin" but it's not done in the p2p layer)
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<Taek>
amiller: in theory you could segregate transactions into separate virtual chains
<Taek>
you'd have a mars chain and an earth chain, for example
<Taek>
all on the same global ledger
<Taek>
then have it so that certain blocks only apply to certain jurisdictions
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<Taek>
as long as you are transacting only within your jurisdiction, the block time is really fast
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<Taek>
hmm
<Taek>
and then if you wanted to jump jurisdictions, you'd have to go through one of the slower blocks
<Taek>
I guess that doesn't actually solve the problem of Earth deciding to wreck the mars chain
<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> that alone doesn't prevent a high-hashpower attacker from far away wreaking havoc on the small chains
<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> yeah!
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<Taek>
but it does provide at least one benefit over separate chains: you at least get the protection of the global chain at the global rate
<Taek>
global -> intersteller or whatever
<Taek>
so earth could wreck the mars chain, but the reorgs would be limited to 30 minutes deep or whatever
<Taek>
which at least improves on earth being able to do a 2 week reorg just for fun b/c mars has no manufacturing
<Taek>
I don't know if you can do better than that in a permissionless environment. A consensus system has to be verified outside of time (or rather, at any point in the future), and you can't to proximity proofs at that point
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