sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<nicolag> I think it is to make sure that the system doesn't get stuck, so it can neutralize that message and move forward (in raft for example by using timeouts)
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<katu_> nicolag: which protocol, paxos-like?
<nicolag> katu_: I think in his presenation, he tries to generalize different concepts, saying that a consensus protocol that wants to agree on statements, need to have statements that must be irrefutable and neutralizable
<katu_> im not too familiar with academic terms, just the actual implementations
<katu_> to me there are two families, online and offline consensus
<nicolag> (I am trying to understand his formal language too)
<katu_> the only existing offline one is satoshi like pow consensus - theres nothing to neutralize. as for online consensus, these are pretty complex and yes, usually deal with neutralization
<katu_> (well, PoS can be considered sort of offline too, sans its NaS weakness)
<katu_> nah scratch that, PoS has to be always online, for returning node to guess correct tip.
<katu_> nicolag: for some conscise notes regarding paxos-like see http://www.scs.stanford.edu/14au-cs244b/notes/paxos.txt
<nicolag> thanks katu_
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<amiller> gmaxwell, the nice thing about honeybadger is that it's only O(N) total communications per tranasction (only O(1) per node), even in the worst case
<amiller> this doesn't really affect your point at all, but it was a big challenge to achieve that so i thought i'd point it out
CrazyTruthYakDDS has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell> amiller: I know.
<amiller> ok
<gmaxwell> amiller: Or unless you're saying something deeper than I beliefed. My understanding is that HB paper is O(N) per transaction because it uses FEC for broadcast, the consensus itself still requires N^2 messages it just doesn't grow with transactions. Using FEC to make broadcast more efficient is a known techique ('network coding', which we'd even tried for block relay previously), so I didn't cons
<gmaxwell> ider that part of the HB result interesting.
rusty2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<nsh> FEC?
<gmaxwell> Forward error correction.
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh> ty
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Noldorin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
unknown| has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
PERSIAN has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell> zooko: you should implement zerocash as an ethereum contract, I hear there might be a party willing to fund that work...
jonasschnelli has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
jonasschnelli has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
MaxSan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
unknown| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
unknown| has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nuke1989 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
justanotheruser has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jiggalator has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jiggalator has quit [Client Quit]
<zooko> gmaxwell: my first thought about that is that Ethereum needs an upgrade to add a ZK-verifier opcode.
<zooko> gmaxwell: in any case, I'm not interested in committing Zcash Co resources to working on that at least until after we launch Zcash 1.0 "Sprout" and tend it through its infant phase,
<zooko> but I'd be happy to encourage other people and hook up interested parties, so
<zooko> please tell me more about who wants to fund it.
MaxSan_ has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jonasschnelli has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
nets1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nets1n has quit [Client Quit]
jiggalator has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jiggalator has quit [Client Quit]
nets1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jonasschnelli has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nets1n has quit [Client Quit]
jiggalator has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jiggalator is now known as nets1n
r0ach has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Disconnected by services]
[7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc> What happened to BIP 9?
Sosumi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc> hmm, looks like it just passed. Something I saw indicated it failed, which seemed weird. Apparently it was wrong.
gsdgdfs has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Transisto2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nets1n has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nets1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n- has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
coup_de_shitlord is now known as stqism
stqism has quit [Changing host]
stqism has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PERSIAN has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell> zooko: the whole argument of their system is "it can already do everything!"
Sosumi has quit [Quit: Bye]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
unknown| has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
unknown| has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
terrapin has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
keesh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nets1n has quit []
CrazyTruthYakDDS has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RoboTeddy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<bramc> gmaxwell: Pshaw, its support for covenants sucks
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
unknown| has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
unknown| has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gavinandresen has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jonasschnelli has quit [Changing host]
jonasschnelli has joined #bitcoin-wizards
unknown| has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PERSIAN has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
PERSIAN has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ManfredMacx has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<zooko> gmaxwell: it's a performance issue. We can't implement SNARK prover in EVM because prohibitively expensive.
<zooko> Oh wait, I mean verifier.
<zooko> And actually, now that I say that, I'm not entirely sure that it is true!
<gmaxwell> it would be insanely so.
<gmaxwell> by comment earlier was mostly a joke about the dao theft, a million ether would pay for a lot of contract execution though.
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roman_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PERSIAN has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<bitjedi> 12:22 AM <zooko> please tell me more about who wants to fund it. <-- assuming TheDAO hacker wants the option of eth privacy layers like zksnarks, ringct, etc.... asap. has eth, will fund. lol.
RoboTeddy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<nsh> hi zooko :) please don't call your awesome cryptothings sprouts kthx
nonaTure has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
nabu has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
nabu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
N0S4A2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy has quit [Changing host]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vyvojar has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nuke1989 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
musalbas has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JHistone has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
King_Rex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nicolag> in order for stellar not to have two divergent statements being ratified by two different quorum slices, stellar needs to have these quorum slices to be interconnected, how do they guarantee that?
<nicolag> s/quorum slices/quorums/
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PRab has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 47.0/20160604131506]]
PERSIAN has joined #bitcoin-wizards
netsinn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<katu_> kanzure: (re: random probing) this is actually how conficker p2p used to bootstrap
<katu_> (it indeed is rather resilient, as long the network is sufficiently large)
netsinn has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
c0rw1n_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n- has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
c0rw1n__ is now known as c0rw1n-
c0rw1n has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
c0rw1n_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
c0rw1n- has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
c0rw1n- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure> "Dafny: a language and program verifier for functional correctness" http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/dafny/
<kanzure> "KIV is a tool for formal systems development and interactive verification" http://www.isse.uni-augsburg.de/en/software/kiv/
<kanzure> http://why3.lri.fr/ "Why3 is a platform for deductive program verification. It provides a rich language for specification and programming, called WhyML, and relies on external theorem provers, both automated and interactive, to discharge verification conditions."
<kanzure> "The continuation of functional programming by other means" (xavier leroy video) http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/Milner2012/X_Leroy-html5-mp4.html
<kanzure> "The future of functional programming languages" (panel discussion video) http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/Milner2012/Monday_Panel-html5-mp4.html
<kanzure> whatever happened to that coq/bitcoin thing, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=949942.0
<kanzure> hm git repo has been removed https://github.com/billlwhite/ledgertheory
<kanzure> alright.
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
<bsm1175321> It's basically a UTXO set commitment as-a-ledger, AFAICT...
<bsm1175321> He's also tracking branches of the UTXO commitment Merkle tree which are empty. So his Merkle tree will have roughly twice as many leaves as there are outputs.
netsin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321> But, proofs of absence in the UTXO set follow in a straightforward manner....
netsin_ has quit []
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
netsinn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
netsinn has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
netsin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
netsin_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nonaTure has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<kanzure> seems that "dag stuff must pick things that increases the size of the set of ancestors" is an obvious result that others are intuiting, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504649.20
<bsm1175321> I've been assuming it all along. You want to create the highest work chain or you risk orphaning your own blocks.
<bsm1175321> Eyeballs bleeding...word salad. (closes bitcointalk tab) Back to braids...
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
N0S4A2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ManfredMacx has quit [Quit: Leaving]
johnwhitton has quit [Quit: johnwhitton]
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
yorick_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
yorick has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Davasny has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Ylbam_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
robmyers_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
runeks_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qawap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[7] has quit [Disconnected by services]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alanius_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_rad- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Lightsword_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GreenIsMyPepper_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [*.net *.split]
musalbas has quit [*.net *.split]
Ylbam has quit [*.net *.split]
runeks has quit [*.net *.split]
robmyers has quit [*.net *.split]
Lightsword has quit [*.net *.split]
lmatteis has quit [*.net *.split]
face has quit [*.net *.split]
Alanius has quit [*.net *.split]
qawap_ has quit [*.net *.split]
null_radix has quit [*.net *.split]
Guest31006 has quit [*.net *.split]
mn3monic has quit [*.net *.split]
GreenIsMyPepper has quit [*.net *.split]
Lightsword_ is now known as Lightsword
Ylbam_ is now known as Ylbam
lmatteis_ is now known as lmatteis
robmyers_ is now known as robmyers
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-wizards
runeks_ is now known as runeks
musalbas has joined #bitcoin-wizards
face has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest31006 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
roman_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
roman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_rad- is now known as null_radix
Tiraspol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<zooko> kanzure: apropos the format verification stuff you were posting: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/1039
<zooko> *formal
MaxSan_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
davec_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Myagui-afk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Myagui-afk is now known as Myagui
nonaTure has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<kanzure> "On the impossibility of a merkle merge homomorphism" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/617.pdf
mn3monic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nonaTure has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<nicolag> kanzure: I am on mobile, what is the above ^ ?
<kanzure> you asked a question about quorum slices, the link contains an answer
whphhg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
whphhg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nicolag> oh thanks kanzure, will look into it
<Taek> having multiple implementations means that softforks become more annoying to deal with, and hardforks become more dangerous
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Taek> I guess if you are doing a 2-of-3 and running 3 full nodes with different implementations it may make hardforks safer
<gmaxwell> Taek: that doesn't make it safer; it just makes more than three times more resource intensive to run a node which will actually be consistent with the network.
<gmaxwell> Both false acceptance and false rejection are bad and can be turned into monetary losses.
<Taek> And I guess it's even more of an issue if there are like 5 or 6 implementations total and different people are chosing different ones for their set of 3
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc> Trying to make standards more reliable by having multiple implementations has a very poor track record
raedah has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
CrazyTruthYakDDS has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
JHistone has quit [Quit: Leaving]
raedah has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
raedah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
roman has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
HostFat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Starduster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guest31006 has quit [Quit: reconnect]
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Madars has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
johnwhitton has joined #bitcoin-wizards
johnwhitton has quit [Client Quit]
libertalis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<dgenr8> consistency is very important, but is not the only desirable property. Taek surely means that having 6 implementations makes you resistant to bugs in any one of them.
<gmaxwell> It can make you vulnerable to bugs in all of them.
<gmaxwell> And divide the review and development resources thin enough to result in not one of them being correct.
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alpalp has quit [Changing host]
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek> Consistency is significantly more important in a system like Bitcoin than in something like http
<Taek> I understand the idea that differneces between implementations can help you find ways that each vary from the high-level spec, but differences are only detected if consistency breaks, which means consensus is threatened
<Taek> and, the fact that you've divided resources may detract more than having two implementations helps
<gmaxwell> There are other alternatives, for example-- one we used for the opus audio codec. We wrote a whole seperate compatible implementation (of just the decoder); tested heavily against it, then threw it out.
<gmaxwell> (it wasn't thrown out ~entirely~ some new optimizations were discovered while it was being written and those went upstream eventually; but pretty much.)