sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Taek>
neha: I worry about extending browsers or too heavily entertaining the idea that browsers should be doing something like payments
<Taek>
once per browser means that it's much harder to become a competitive broswer
<Taek>
the ones we've got are already security nightmares and you basically need to have $XXX million dollars to make another one
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<Taek>
In thinking more about byzantine failures, I realized that in a deterministic universe all failures could really fall in the same class.
<Taek>
If you write some code and it doesn't compile, that's a failure where you missed something simple about the rules of the language
<Taek>
And, if you assume a deterministic universe, all failures really result from the same missing knowledge. Things are either going to give you problematic inputs or they are not, and an all-seeing God would likely be able to figure that out
<Taek>
And I think this is useful because it allows to you figure out places where you can relax byzantine assumptions. Usually we call this 'trust'
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<Taek>
But I think trust is somewhat of a loaded term, and in general this community has an aversion to trust.
<Taek>
Instead I've started thinking about things in terms of 'capacity for failure' or 'byzantine capacity', which more or less comes down to the question "how likely is it that something provides troublesome inputs to my program"?
<Taek>
Coinbase can do some byzantine management through their KYC/AML. By forcing users to give up so much information about themselves, coinbase significantly reduces the rate at which their users will try using the site abusively, as there's no anonymity
<Taek>
vs. something like bitcoin, where attackers are anonymous and are actively incentivized to try to commit abuse
<nsh>
(an all-seeing god is not compatible with an universe that has local and finitely propagating information and a hard maximum of computational [energy] density)
<nsh>
*a
<nsh>
(except in simulation arguments, i guess)
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<Taek>
depends on how much computation you need to do to get from one universe state to the next. It seems possible (at least in my head) that you could take a known universe and compute the next state of some set of particles doing sublinear computation... maybe? Maybe not.
<Taek>
But you can still make reasonable assumptions about things without having perfect knowledge
<Taek>
If you think in terms of byzantine capacity, a model of security exists where you are trying to minimize the byzantine capacity of the ecosystem. It's like security through obscurity, except security-through-constructing-an-environment-that's-not-likely-to-abuse-you
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<Taek>
which is sometimes probably a much easier standard to achieve than security-through-guaranteeing-that-no-set-of-inputs-will-ever-cause-unwanted-results
* nsh
nods
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<kanzure>
Taek: yes in general you should pick things that are reliable and not use unreliable garbage..
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<instagibbs>
waxwing, not sure of answer, but it's not necessary to identify everyone to identify the misbehaving peer
<waxwing>
instagibbs: what i mean is that if you coordinate on some random messaging platform as "foo", and then get identified as misbehaving, you can just rejoin later as "bar"
<waxwing>
if identity is not persistent, little is gained by identifying the miscreant
<instagibbs>
the single mix will go through
<instagibbs>
but yes, DoS will be a problem
<waxwing>
you mean it will go through without them? is it set up like that? that seems a bit hairy because you have to propose a transaction before getting signatures, if one drops out that tx is not valid.
<instagibbs>
right, but you find who is DoSing, drop them
<instagibbs>
apparently takes 2 rounds per DoSer
<waxwing>
yes i'm reading more now, i see that's how it's intended. well, that's certainly stronger than i was thinking.
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<instagibbs>
yeah without being able to assign blame, it's kind of useless
<waxwing>
instagibbs: we seem to have flipped positions :) it's useful that it completes within that 1 transaction at least, right. as long as the number of DOSers is small compare to the number of honest perhaps?
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<maaku>
you assign blame to the txout, not the protocol level identity
<waxwing>
maaku: sure, it's an unqualified step up from "completely anonymous" to use utxos, but it's also not *that* strong a defence. of course you can do it more than one way, too.
<maaku>
waxwing: you have to use utxos anyway no? I don't know how to avoid that unless we're talking monero
<waxwing>
i mean, "use" in the sense of mark them and disallow re-use in some way
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<instagibbs>
waxwing, what does the j superscript mean in m_i^j in the paper
<waxwing>
instagibbs: in 2.3?
<waxwing>
if so it does actually mean powers. they're using relations between the powers of the roots and the coefficients of polynomials.
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