sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<pigeons>
but yeah they have asics for "dash" etc now
<maaku>
pigeons: although in this case asics for "memory-hard" systems actually have a greater speedup vs GPUs than sha256d
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<maaku>
because they use more circuit area and therefore the cooling situation is better
<bsm117532>
Well, I'm looking at Ethereum's Hashimoto and ZCash's generalized-birthday algorithms.
<pigeons>
ethereum will acknowledge the ony reason they dont have asics is because they declared they will switch algorithms if one comes before they implement proof of stake
<bsm117532>
They will not implement PoS. I'll take a monumental bet on that.
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<pigeons>
for a while they would add one little tweak each time sergio lerner would mention dagger issues, then everyone decided it wasnt worth the bother
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<pigeons>
i remember a tim hughes audit or something and buterin said it didnt matter because they will switch to proof of stake
<bsm117532>
Switching to PoS represents a fundamental misunderstanding of why PoW coins have value. They will implode if they do.
<pigeons>
yes most people but ethereum agree with that
<pigeons>
that was added to force a change to proof of stake
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<pigeons>
by making it pretty much not possible to mine
<bsm117532>
hmmm when does it trigger?
<pigeons>
because their "social contract" weak and contradictory and confusing as it is, is that they will switch to proof of stake
<pigeons>
it has already triggered, it was block 200,000 i believe
<pigeons>
it just will not be very noticable for a few more months
<bsm117532>
Thanks, will have to play with this. Also, figure out how to short ETH...
<bsm117532>
That is so incredibly foolish. My mind assplode.
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<smooth>
x11 is not and never was supposed to be memory hard, it is just 11 ordinary hash functions
<smooth>
scrypt's memory hardness was severely flawed
<smooth>
(linear TMTO)
<smooth>
im not aware of ASICs for any other pow alg
<smooth>
bsm117532> Switching to PoS represents a fundamental misunderstanding of why PoW coins have value. <= but i dont think Ethereum was ever really envisioned to be a pow coin
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<smooth>
PoW was done as a temporary measure because PoS wasn't ready yet
<smooth>
i have been watching with interest to see if the development of a significant-size ethereum economy results in any
<smooth>
pushback on the plan to switch, but i haven't see it at all. They are still full speed ahead on PoS afaict
<bsm117532>
smooth: Don't care. PoS is a fantasy. I'm happy they've added cryptographic transactions and a state machine to Oracle. They've misunderstood the ETH value proposition of their crowdsale (or maybe fully understood it!)
<bsm117532>
AFAICT I'm the only one screaming against the truck running full speed into the wall. I'm calculating the optimal time to short ETH as we speak...
<smooth>
bsm117532: im just reporting what i observe, with interest. if you have issues with their approach, tell them
<bsm117532>
I have.
<smooth>
yes im aware
<bsm117532>
There's rather too much hero worship over there. Every time I bring it up, people haven't thought about it at all and are trusting Vitalik/Vlaad/Gavin to Do The Right Thing. (and maybe they will...)
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<bsm117532>
I've seen the notion that "I can print money" poison people's minds, in a lot of different (and usually good-intentioned) ways in this space.
<midnightmagic>
Well, hope springs eternal.. like the hope in me that people will start being on-topic one day.
<bsm117532>
+1 midnightmagic. I do think PoW vs PoS is on-topic, but I'm not offering any new insights there.
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<midnightmagic>
:)
<smooth>
Does the ethereum rhetoric that it isn't money but fuel for a world compuer make any logical sense at all?
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<bsm117532>
No. Especially when they intend to decouple it from real world value and it becomes just another row in just another boring database. (My computer's fuel is a lot cheaper than ETH)
<smooth>
It seems similar to the argument that values Bitcoin based on tx fees and ability to trasport value electronically
<smooth>
setting aside proof of stake even, would eth work if no one ever valued it as external money
<bsm117532>
There's a disconnect occurring in this community that "a number over here" is worth something while "a number over there" is worth nothing. They're both fucking numbers. Yes, transactions are good and all, but businesses are modifying numbers in databases at marginal cost all over the world.
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<bsm117532>
smooth: you've used that word. "value". Try and rephrase your question without using it.
<smooth>
bsm117532: external utility then. Assuming people only recognize the token as fuel, but good for nothing else
<bsm117532>
Can you quantify that?
<smooth>
i dont understand the question
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<bsm117532>
smooth: quantify people are willing to pay in real-world value for that which they "only recognize [...] as fuel, but good for nothing else"
<smooth>
it would be because the World Computer does something useful i suppose, and they want to to use it
<bsm117532>
so quantify what that is and how much you'd be willing to pay?
<smooth>
I have no idea what the World Computer is useful for. It isn't clear that actual use cases have been identified
<bsm117532>
It costs nothing to fork Ethereum and make another "world computer" for which I don't have to pay into it in advance.
<smooth>
That seems implausible. It has a cost to operate just like the original
<bsm117532>
So either it's (a) all speculation or (b) rational decision based on current price and availability of electricity and mining hardware.
<bsm117532>
smooth: The cost is marginal. I'm running the computer anyway. Running a node costs next to nothing.
<smooth>
Running your own node does not serve the same function as a world computer that is widely used an recognized
<smooth>
there is a network effect there. I see no difference between that and forking your own bitcoin and mining it at diff 1
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<bsm117532>
A set of latecomers wants to run a "world computer". Do they (a) pay exorbitant prices for coins and join an existing network? Or do they (b) poo-pooh that network and start their own, at marginal cost to themselves, encouraging other latecomers to join?
<smooth>
i guess it depends if there is actual utility
<bsm117532>
What utility does the first network have that the second does not?
<smooth>
it has a network which includes its existing users. Large networks tend to be worth more than small ones
<bsm117532>
If transactions, or the "world computer" are the utility, then it costs nothing to duplicate, and is worth no expenditure of mine.
<bsm117532>
Cheaper networks tend to spread faster than expensive networks.
<smooth>
Consider The DAO which is a smart contract that proports to behave as a decentralized investment fund
<smooth>
If I feel this fund is useful and i want to interact with it, I have to use the same network
<bsm117532>
It's worth nothing when ETH itself tanks. Its value has an anchor in the real world. What is that anchor?
<smooth>
I think large networks have value unto themselves. The value isn't infinite; they can be displaced, but it is significant
<bsm117532>
Don't use "value". Seriously. I challenge you. ;-) I can't pay my rent with that, and if I'm an investor, it's worth nothing if I can't pay the rent of those i'm investing in...
<smooth>
re. The DAO I think we can largely ignore the fact that the "investment funds" of The DAO happen to be held in ETH. That is something that has been debated
<smooth>
You could imagine a smart contract holding value in BTC or even USD but the contract itself is hosted on the Ethereum network
<smooth>
bsm117532: if access to the network is something people want then they will trade rent for it
<bsm117532>
Well the issue becomes: If it holds USD that's an IOU and what are the circumstances surrounding settling into actual USD? If it's BTC, how is that BTC held, since Ethereum itself can't hold private keys. Again, how do I settle back into BTC? (Since the computer itself is value-less)
<smooth>
It is done by appointing agents
<bsm117532>
smooth: I'd be happy to trade my landlord rows in my database for rent. How much do you want to bet I can't make that happen within the next 50 years? ;-)
<smooth>
rows in your database are worth about the same as coins on your own bitcoin fork
<bsm117532>
exactamundo. Also, I have a torrent file that is replicated among 1000 nodes, if that's where you're heading.
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<bsm117532>
smooth: I'll cut to the chase: all value is relative. There are markets, and there are fundamentals, and they are not the same. A market without fundamentals is 100% speculation, and I'm happy to sell you a bridge, or tulip bulbs. Without fundamentals, any crypto-currency is a zero-value bubble. The fundamental here is the *spent* value of mining, below which miners will be unwilling to sell (so *not* speculati
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