#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-04-14 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

00:00 <bramc> Yeah this should all be ported to C

00:01 <bramc> The next question is whether I should stick with my current assumption that branch blocks and leaf blocks are the same size. They're both roughly based on cache size.

00:02 <bramc> Although if one is using the system allocator there's no real reason to do that. I only did it out of simplicity.

00:03 <bramc> Although it does make things a bit more efficient on reuse.

00:03 <bsm1175321> IIRC this is the place of C++ allocators, which a certain employer of mine had a giant hard on for, generally pissing off all developers, but for better or worse he was influential enough to get allocators into the C++ STL standard. I believe they're for sub-block allocation, and probably not news to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allocator_(C%2B%2B)

00:03 <bsm1175321> I've never had to use them personally...

00:04 <bsm1175321> I would generally not assume that I can do better than the system's malloc...

00:05 <bramc> I have strong justification for why I can improve on the system's malloc in the small, for individual nodes in the tree, not so much for blocks.

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00:07 <bsm1175321> So the question is: does there exist a C or libc primitive to allocate in units of the system block size...

00:08 <bramc> bsm1175321: Oh I'm just assuming a magic number has to be passed in

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00:08 <bsm1175321> It would be nice to know that you're not fighting against the system malloc

00:08 <bramc> l1 and l2 cache misses are generally different costs, so the ideal value might be somewhere in between

00:09 <bramc> And my branch block size has to occur in rough powers of two

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00:11 <bsm1175321> Unfortunately, "block" is an overloaded semantic operator and should be deprecated. Yes, Google, I'm asking about Minecraft, and every malloc page ever using the word "block".

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00:17 <bramc> The basic structure here is that I have 'branch' blocks, which are internally balanced and have a single parent and a single entry point from that parent, and 'leaf' blocks which have a single parent which is a branch block, and multiple entry points from that block, and no children themselves

00:18 <bramc> The nodes in branch blocks are in fixed positions based on their bits. Leaf block nodes contain references to where their children are.

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00:21 <bramc> Format for nodes is one byte of metadata which specifies whether the thing in the 0 and 1 positions are there at all and whether they're terminals. They're always both terminals when there are only two things below, even if the next level bit of them is the same.

00:21 <bramc> hashes are truncated at 31 bytes to get the total length under 64 bytes, so that in the future a modification of sha256 can be used which doesn't do any padding, because that will double the hashing speed.

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00:29 <bramc> You can blame phantomcircuit for the no padding idea.

00:34 <bramc> Another dumb question: How many bytes should I preallocate for references? Is six enough?

00:35 <bramc> And am I going to hell for using ctypes.cast(id(a), ctypes.py_object).value ?

00:35 <bramc> (don't bother answering that last one, of course I'm going to hell for that.)

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00:57 <bramc> Okay maybe I'm not doing that. In the interests of memory not getting deallocated I'm going to maintain a dictionary mapping references to objects to their corresponding objects. This is ridiculous, but will get optimized out when it's all ported to C.

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01:16 <bsm1175321> bramc: You've gotten beyond my expertise. I know what you're doing is bitcoin related, but maybe there's a better channel for these detailed memory questions. #c or #asm ?

01:18 <bsm1175321> Also I worry about premature optimization. There are enough open questions regarding utxo commitments and fraud proofs that maybe it would be best to postpone these considerations, unless they are critical to proving the viability of your idea?

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02:44 <bramc> bsm1175321: The actual format of the merkle tree I'm using is fairly conventional. The nice thing about all the fancy stuff I'm doing is that it's just implementation details. merkle trees tend to be very self-testing.

02:45 <bsm1175321> I like cryptographic data structures that way... ;-) Cosmic rays are a bitch...

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02:46 <kanzure> ctypes.cast(id(a)... yea i already know this is going to end poorly.

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03:23 <bramc> kanzure: Porting it to C is no problem, but Python's garbage collector gets in the way

03:23 <bramc> kanzure: So for now I'm going to make a dictionary mapping references to references, and it will be a ridiculous extra cache miss in the Python version, but since that isn't supposed to be used for anything but testing and porting to C anyway it isn't a problem.

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03:40 <bsm1175321> bramc: why this extreme focus on performance?

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03:50 <bramc> bsm1175321: Because performance problems are the whole reason there aren't utxo commitments in blocks already

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03:54 <bsm1175321> bramc: agreed. But are the enhacements you're working on an O(n) enhancement or a constant factor? I can't tell...

03:55 <bramc> bsm1175321: They're a constant factor, probably around 4, although it might be quite a bit better than that.

03:56 <bramc> bsm1175321: To be clear, except for lazy root evaluation (which I am adding!) all that can be done is reducing cache misses and the amount of hashing to be done

03:56 <bramc> So not so much improvement in asymptotics. The structure itself is, as I said, a fairly conventional binary merkle tree

03:57 <bsm1175321> So what's the O(n) requirement for adding utxo commitments in your scheme? (And what's n? number of transactions?)

03:58 <bramc> n is the number of elements in the utxo set. It's O(log(n)) for insertion and deletion. Lazy evaluation buys you that the cost of building the whole thing initially is O(n) instead of O(n*log(n))

03:59 <moa> bramc: do you have a repo where you're doing this? I'd be interested to take a gander ...

04:00 <bramc> moa: There's an unfinished version at https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet which I'm in the middle of a massive rewrite of

04:01 <moa> thnx

04:02 <bramc> moa: The format documentation at the top is fairly coherent though and I'm happy to answer questions

04:02 <bsm1175321> bramc: I'm far more concerned about the asymptotics than the constant factor.

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04:02 <bramc> bsm1175321: Constant factors matter!

04:02 <bsm1175321> log(n) is convincing!

04:03 <bsm1175321> I haven't seen any motion on getting utxo commitments into bitcoin, and I'd like to see some. That's not dependent on constant factors...

04:04 <bramc> bsm1175321: Some kind of benchmarks were run and the conclusion was that it would increase the cost of running a full node by about 10x. Hence my trying to improve that before trying to push forward any serious discussion about including it.

04:04 <bsm1175321> Oh fucking hell. really? Do you have any links?

04:05 <bramc> Uh... gmaxwell has discussed it in this channel in the past. That's my primary info source.

04:05 <bsm1175321> 10x?!?!?!?

04:05 <bsm1175321> Ok.

04:06 <bsm1175321> I'm not convinced...I think an implementation and benchmarks are needed...

04:06 <bramc> Well I'll eventually have an implementation and benchmarks. Hopefully much better than 10x.

04:07 <bsm1175321> I don't understand how it could possibly be 10x...

04:07 <bramc> It's mostly from massive cache misses on naive merkle tree implementation for every new transaction

04:08 <bramc> Also there are some latency issues, which will probably be fixed by making the merkle root be behind by a few blocks.

04:09 <bsm1175321> Point is, if it's 10x now, and even if you can provide a constant factor of 10, it will be 20 tomorrow, and the scheme will fail.

04:10 <bramc> Not sure your reasoning there. The log(n) should make it so that even if the number of transactions doubles the proportion of the costs of running a full node will still have roughly the same proportion coming from maintaining the merkle roots.

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04:11 <bsm1175321> log(2) is still a 69% increase in full-node running costs.

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04:12 <bsm1175321> I see...

04:12 <bramc> log(1000000) and log(2000000) are fairly close to each other

04:13 <bsm1175321> I can't intuit the ratio between the relative constant factors between a UTXO set commitment and the existing computations with the same scaling law...

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04:15 <bsm1175321> bramc: well we're talking a*log(n) + b*log(n) so (a+b) is all that matters. I can't intuit the ratio a/b...

04:15 <bramc> There's some fairly low-hanging fruit. Assuming the bottleneck is cache misses, I'm getting a 2x improvement from a cute trick to make sibling values be next to each other in memory, plus 2x or so for lazy evaluation, plus another factor for clustering things into blocks, maybe around 5x... actually my improvement may be massive, now that I'm working through numbers.

04:16 <moa> how big is 'n' currently? (utxo total size is ~1.7 GB)

04:16 <bsm1175321> bramc: I guess I want to see a demonstration that this proposal is more costly than existing full-node computation.

04:17 <bsm1175321> Ignoring any constant factors, for the moment...

04:17 <bramc> Each hash is 32 bytes, so 1.7GB would be about 50 million entries

04:17 <bramc> bsm1175321: I took the reported problems at face value. Given the information I was told, I should be able to fix the problem, hence I'm working on it.

04:18 <bsm1175321> bramc: Understood. I'm missing your sources. Not your fault.

04:18 <bramc> bsm1175321: gmaxwell is the one who knows

04:19 <bsm1175321> He stopped hanging out here because block size scaling sucks and people were being assholes. :-/ I can't blame him...

04:19 <bramc> I think he's been busy with his Real Job too.

04:19 <bsm1175321> That too...

04:20 <bramc> Also block size scaling is worse than frustrating, it's boring.

04:20 <bsm1175321> agreed.

04:20 <bramc> You can only debunk the same shit so many times before you just want to tell people to go the fuck away

04:20 <bsm1175321> Sipa vanished too, though both are still quite prolific. I think it's the arguments more than RL duties that sent them away. :-(

04:23 <bsm1175321> In case gmaxwell or sipa read this, you are missed.

04:23 <bramc> The usual blockchain people were at the bitcoin devs meeting on monday

04:23 <bsm1175321> What meeting is that?

04:24 <bramc> http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/

04:24 <bsm1175321> I'm an organizer for http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/. Mine is bigger than yours. :-P

04:25 <bramc> I don't run the ones out here. I also skip the ones which are loopy.

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04:25 <bsm1175321> Ours are never loopy. We filter for that shit.

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08:42 <mase1> hello

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08:42 <Taek> hello

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09:33 <mase123> h

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09:34 <mase123> whats up

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09:34 <mase123> i love bitcoin

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09:35 <amiller> mase123, sorry to be a jerk, but we try to keep this channel for technical content only, if you're just striking up conversation stick to #bitcoin or other

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09:37 <mase123> I am not

09:37 <mase123> I will not chat again

09:37 <mase123> in this room

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14:48 <Schlorted> hi, no troll seriously -- what is the current status of block size increase? it is still based on if miners switch enough hashing power to classic?

14:50 <instagibbs> Schlorted, try #bitcoin

14:50 <instagibbs> off topic her

14:50 <instagibbs> here

14:50 <Schlorted> ok, sorry bro

14:50 <Schlorted> but if you have an answer or opinion it's not as if the channel is hugely busy feel free to share :)

14:51 <instagibbs> it's off-topic because people read the scrollback here for wizardly topics. No problem

14:51 <fluffypony> Schlorted: please read the channel topic, it indicates what topics are up for discussion here - veering off topic massively decreases the SNR

14:51 <Schlorted> 10-4 nuff said

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15:54 <kanzure> "pre-image length probabilistic payments (PILPP)" "trustless nano-payments (femto, atto?) possible with chains of PILPPs" https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G4xchDGcO37DJ2lPC_XYyZIUkJc2khnLrCaZXgvDN0U/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.g85f425098_0_2

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16:07 <kanzure> "Micropayments for Peer-to-peer currencies" (rafael pass, abhi shelat) https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~shelat/research/2015-07-25-micropayment/

16:16 <Giszmo> kanzure: nice idea. Assuming that LN will be the prevalent way of doing transactions by the time a satoshi is actually worth cents I can very well see how people would be fine with an x% chance of owning 100/x satoshis but that only helps us if settling LN channels is a very rare thing. Also book keepers will hate PPs :) Gambling right in the books :)

16:17 <kanzure> a sidechain could be used for sub-satoshi payments but they have to stay over there. doesn't require probabilistic payments either.

16:18 <Giszmo> "We have 137 Satoshis and one Schrödinger-Satoshi."

16:18 <kanzure> but it would require cross-chain payment channels (or at least nodes operating on the edges of both network)

16:18 <kanzure> would also require a parameter to be added in LN for destination chain reasons

16:18 <kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/010909.html

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16:19 <Giszmo> kanzure: where to discuss this? I guess it's a bit too far off for this channel here.

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16:21 <kanzure> probabilistic payments are on-topic for this channel

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16:22 <instagibbs> cool stuff. I was wondering how they were going to avoid "CUSTODIAN" yelling with the subsatoshi amounts

16:24 <kanzure> i was thinking maybe fidelity-bonding for trust-required sub-satoshi payments, not sure though

16:27 <kanzure> i think the requirement for it to remain "trustless" is that anyone who receives >dust from multiple sub-satoshi payments (or sub-dust payments even) should be able to unilaterally settle on their own. i don't think it's reasonable to expect sub-satoshi settlement so "trustless" there doesn't have much meaning. but multiple payments should sum to a trustless payment somehow.

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16:29 <kanzure> there's probably a way to do that with crypto, something like "add N signatures from the same signer, with these amounts, to produce a signature from that signer for the total amount". that sounds like a crypto thing that probably exists.

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21:23 <kanzure> re: "a crypto thing that probably exists", i forgot about aggregatable signatures oops https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0

21:25 <nsh> this is basically gmax's proposal for using schnorr aggregation to effect systematic coinjoins

21:25 <nsh> it was picked up in some coin-mag i saw in passing yest

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21:28 <kanzure> er, i also forgot about homomorphic encryption apparently :)

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21:30 <nsh> the problem is making you forget about homomorphic encryption efficiently enough to scale

21:30 <nsh> :)

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23:38 <CryptoAi> We’re currently looking for java developers with experience in algorithmic trading to join our machine learning start-up. For more information on the position please view our recruitment doc

23:38 <CryptoAi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jt7VKAI6_jU-yaMJX2A7Bj8JpLN0hhgfmrMrmy1PUHs/edit?usp=sharing

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