sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<MRL-Relay>
{-othe} Isn´t that the same already used in Signal etc?
<TD-Linux>
Open Whisper Systems is the company that developed Signal
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<phantomcircuit>
TD-Linux, indeed it's my understanding that OWS implemented the protocol for whatsapp
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<MRL-Relay>
{-shen} I think they both use this axolotl thing, which I also noticed seems to be in the new crypto.cat implementation
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<bsm1175321>
So, let's say, hypothetically, you wanted to get some ideas in this space reviewed, in the academic sense.
<bsm1175321>
What papers/whitepapers/drafts/blogs would you submit for peer review?
<fluffypony>
bsm1175321: submit to Ledger, that's your best bet right now
<fluffypony>
there's nothing else, really, that's offering any sort of formal process for submission
<fluffypony>
if there was you can bet I'd be submitting every altcoin whitepaper ever :-P
<bsm1175321>
fluffypony: I'm considering the future of Ledger, and how to best contribute to it.
<kanzure>
you would probably just heckle people on irc until they review your work
<kanzure>
that's pretty much all there is to it
<fluffypony>
kanzure: or offer them money
<bsm1175321>
I can heckle.
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<bsm1175321>
Are you a coward? I don't see it on Ledger yet...
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<fluffypony>
it...?
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<kanzure>
peer review often isn't published at all. not sure what you're talking about now.
<bsm1175321>
I have this dream of making peer review a kind of DAO...
<liead>
bsm1175321: get your systems handling real value. launch an altcoin. let those who can break it, short on an exchange and cash out btc.
<bsm1175321>
I would prefer that wise people carefully read a paper that I had carefully written, before ignorant people lose money over my ideas.
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<Taek>
Lots of fundamentally broken altcoins move millions of dollars before someone takes advantage
<fluffypony>
+100000
<Taek>
I just got my paper back from Ledger. Their criticisms were pretty good. Need to rewrite it, but I understand why
<bsm1175321>
Glad to hear. Just had some discussions with Ledger, I hope to move this in a positive direction for all.
<Taek>
But that's also a problem. Formal academia has very high standards, which means progress is slow.
<Taek>
I'd like to have a parallel system that is perhaps not as correct or rigorous, but pumps ideas through faster
<Taek>
IMO both are necessary
<fluffypony>
Taek: otoh you don't have to have EVERY idea go through formal review
<fluffypony>
and, if you're small, you can adapt your implementation to meet revisions of the academia
<bsm1175321>
Pumping ideas through faster in crypto-space means a poorly thought out coin which gets pumped, dumped, defrauded, and stolen.
<bsm1175321>
Shit is hard and we shouldn't be ashamed of taking our time.
<Taek>
Depends. CT for example never made it through academia
<Taek>
From what I can tell, neither did the Sybil attack
<bsm1175321>
There are rare exceptions where very wise people made stuff. But 99.9% of the time, the opposite is true, and the public who doesn't know any better and can't tell...gets fleeced.
<bsm1175321>
The general public can't tell the difference.
<bsm1175321>
It's up to us, the -wizards, to police each other.
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<bsm1175321>
This is the purpose of peer review. We need to convince the general public to ignore anything and everything that hasn't been peer reviewed. (and in science, also reproduced)
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<fluffypony>
Taek: have you seen djb's talk on "The post-quantum Internet." ?
<Taek>
I have, don't remember it super well though
<fluffypony>
argh not that one, I mean "The first 10 years of Curve25519"
<Taek>
I wonder if software like operating systems should have as much review as academia
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<Taek>
It's so important, that level of rigor may be merited
<bsm1175321>
More. Much more. Much, much, much, much more.
<fluffypony>
oof gtg, thanks for putting my Wednesday thinking cap on, bsm1175321 :)
<Taek>
Yet the average line of code in Linux had probably been seen by 2-3 eyes
<Taek>
Maybe the core portions are better
<bsm1175321>
o/ fluffypony
<bsm1175321>
Crypto is something else. We need to *ensure* as many eyes as possible.
<bsm1175321>
So here's a challenge to you all: how do we get the diarrhea often called "whitepapers" into a journal, and get them reviewed?
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<Taek>
Ledger seems like a good start to me. But how do we minimize the amount of time wasted by total garbage? Require endorsements from professors?
<Taek>
At this stage probably not needed, I don't think ledger is currently struggling with volume overload
<Taek>
Maybe amiller has thoughts
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<fluffypony>
I would love to see a few garbage papers reviewed in Ledger and appropriately destroyed
<fluffypony>
I don't mean the purely nonsensical like that altcoin that had "stargates" for anonymity
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<fluffypony>
But stuff that is based on a misunderstanding of cryptography / attacks / game theory, or that misuses statistical likelihood to present risk
<fluffypony>
I guess the real question is: does Ledger need the author's permission to review it? (I think not)
<fluffypony>
Also, do they need the author's permission to publish said review?
<fluffypony>
And, lastly, who is willing to motive and/or pay the reviewers for what is a colossal waste of time that only serves one purpose, to help educate and protect gullible end-users?
<fluffypony>
All these and more will be answered in the next episode of "crypto fun with bsm1175321"
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<fluffypony>
kanzure: we're talking about reviews of the more nonsensical altcoin papers, as a way to educate end-users as to how broken the systems are, and how invalid the claims of the creators are
<kanzure>
oh ok, you mean a review review paper
<fluffypony>
yes exactly
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<yoleaux>
[1604.01383] Quantum Bitcoin: An Anonymous and Distributed Currency Secured by the No-Cloning Theorem of Quantum Mechanics
<fluffypony>
that's way above my mental paygrade
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<bsm117532>
"overlay" journals are becoming popular, and one aspect of them is public review comments. This would be a good thing for the bitcoin space, and hopefully shut down some ill conceived crowdsales before people lost money.
<bsm117532>
I want to see a systematic referee/rating layer added to the arXiv...
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<nsh>
*semantic ontology layer added to the *web
<nsh>
(just scoping your problem difficulty class :)
<kanzure>
strange that arxiv didn't ask questions like "what percent of reading material do you gather from arxiv?" or other use-metrics
<kanzure>
i expect they would find that they have a significant percentage of most reading hours for some fields
<kanzure>
>5% at least
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<kanzure>
my recommendations to them were things like, make older papers more accessible from their homepage (they only show the past ~week of uploads), and re-enable their torrents for archival/backup/mirroring/copying.
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<bsm117532>
More than the last week is hundreds of papers for many fields -- too much to sift through.
<kanzure>
nonsense. have you tried? :)
<bsm117532>
for decades, yes. ;-)
<kanzure>
also: your personal failure to keep up should not be a reason to limit my ability to receive fucking indexes