wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<ryan-c>
anyone know of a way to search for tx outputs of a specific amount?
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<belcher>
yeah, sec
<belcher>
i coded something simple a few months ago, queries bc.i
<ryan-c>
cool, i even managed to get them to give me an api key already
<belcher>
it was used back then to deanonymize bitcoinfog and other mixers
<ryan-c>
I've been derping around with where brainwallets have been pilfered two
<ryan-c>
to
<ryan-c>
playing around with blockseer a bit but it's pretty limited
<ryan-c>
belcher: that looks perfect, actually - I found a couple clusters of brainwallets with transactions that make a bunch of outputs with the same value, some of which are brainwallets i cracked
<ryan-c>
looks like researcher activity
<belcher>
if i was coding it today i would've used json-rpc, but back then i didnt have the blockchain downloaded
<ryan-c>
json-rpc against bitcoind?
<belcher>
yeah
<ryan-c>
I've found it's gotten very slow to all the transactions in blocks these days
<belcher>
iv also got an alternate script, slightly more complex, which finds multiple txes that pay to one address, and adds up the total btc, searches against that
<ryan-c>
interesting
<belcher>
used specifically for bitcoinfog, because for some reason they pay multiple times to a single address...
<ryan-c>
I was trying to scrape r values and compute z for all transactions a while ago, but it got slow at around block 190,000
<nsh>
forums are strongly opposed by the right angle-bracket lobby, to which cryptographers are pretty beholden. so it's mailing-lists until email is retired
<ryan-c>
"angle-bracket lobby"
<ryan-c>
I am so stealing that.
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* nsh
smiles
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<frankenmint>
this is a dumb question, but can primecoine hashes be used to reverse engineer bitcoin private keys? Watching this movie says that public key crytography systems are built on combining the product of prime numbers and that the computation of factorization of these products to determine the prime number bases is what makes it very difficult to crack cryptography? Wouldn't using a huge swath of known prime numbe
<frankenmint>
rs and hashed prime number results in a sort of 'rainbow table' be sufficient to break sha2?
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<frankenmint>
the 'bend' would be in easing the rate of factorization
<helo>
frankenmint: well, ECDSA doesn't use prime numbers... that's RSA.
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<helo>
frankenmint: offtopic, but the crux of RSA is that it's pretty easy to find a lot of very large prime numbers. there are too many to build a table of.
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<wumpus>
eh sorry, thought this was -nl
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<andytoshi>
frankenmint: (a) no, because bitcoin does not use RSA, and (b) no, because you can't make a rainbow table of thousand-bit primes :)
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<frankenmint>
is that basically a MB per data column?
<frankenmint>
1MB ^ 256-1?
<frankenmint>
*2 to denominate a 2nd column for UUID
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<instagibbs>
frankenmint: You should watch the Crypto1 lectures :) does RSA and Crypto2 will cover ECC(if it actually happens)
<frankenmint>
im on lecture 3 right now
<instagibbs>
I actually went through the lectures, and repeated as necessary to really understand. Great stuff.
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<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] helo: ECDSA uses prime numbers, e.g. prime field moduli etc. just in a totally different way than RSA. :)
<gmaxwell>
tacotime: all math uses prime number if you want to be abstract enough about it, as every number has a prime decomposition! :)
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] gmaxwell: hah, true enough
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<gmaxwell>
gah well all number theory, at least; shouldn't have said all math. :P though the notion of primeness probably translates into every other context somehow. :)
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<Apocalyptic>
gmaxwell, find me a related notion to primeness in general topology :)
<andytoshi>
Apocalyptic: terminal objects in category theory are analogues to primes
<andytoshi>
or is it initial objects?
<Apocalyptic>
andytoshi, I thought category theory was not part of topology
<andytoshi>
Apocalyptic: category theory encompasses everything
<Apocalyptic>
<andytoshi> Apocalyptic: category theory encompasses everything // precisely
<Apocalyptic>
not the other way around
<Apocalyptic>
i.e it's not a subfield of topology
<andytoshi>
Apocalyptic: you can still learn a lot about topology from categories; algebraic topology is almost entirely category theory
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<Apocalyptic>
andytoshi, no argument there
<andytoshi>
oh, good :) because that's the limit of what i actually know about topology\
<frankenmint>
how do i unignore someone?
<fluffypony>
/ignore -r nickname
<frankenmint>
aha, okay cool
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] gmaxwell - you are talking about UFD's (rings where every element factors uniquely into primes)
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<frankenmint>
ah i see that's something like relay transmitting users comms between here and slack
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<fluffypony>
frankenmint: between here and the Monero Research Lab
<fluffypony>
but yes, the person talking is the person in [ ] brackets :)
<frankenmint>
nice cool alright
<kanzure>
i would still like to find a general solution to the problem of "even if you have good fraud proofs for all possible fraud, a single supernode might require so many resources as to make it impossible to setup an alternative supernode, due supernode costliness".
<kanzure>
on a related note, there may be no guarantees that fees could ever be sufficient for scaling towards a system that accepts 1e9 to 1e15 transactions/sec, even in a centralization regime
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<frankenmint>
1 cent times 15 quadrillion?
<kanzure>
that was number of transactions not number of cents
<frankenmint>
at that level would a much greater portion of mining power be needed?
<frankenmint>
but what would the propsed global transaction fee be?
<frankenmint>
.001 cents perhaps?
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<kanzure>
i think 10k-member m-of-m at-least-1-honest-signer signing pool running as a supernode might always have no way for the network to recover consensus in the event of supernode fraud. what are you going to do, accept lots of reorgs while "0.1% capacity nodes" try to run things and compete to become the new supernode? bah
<kanzure>
frankenmint: i don't know what you mean by global transaction fee
<kanzure>
frankenmint: mining hashrate is unrelated to number of transactions/sec
<frankenmint>
what is a supernode specifically?
<frankenmint>
a huge pool processsing 1e9+ trx?
<kanzure>
supernode is a vague and generic concept that refers to the idea of a certain type of node, sometimes only one, in a p2p network that has asymmetrically more resources or computing power than all of the other p2p nodes.
<frankenmint>
essentially centralization
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<kanzure>
yes, very much so
<frankenmint>
my contrapoint was that this occurs because people are trying to squeeze more value out of the network
<kanzure>
in the scenario i described i placed various limiters on the supernode- like it's either trustless or there's fraud proofs flying around- but yeah it's centralization
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<frankenmint>
so yes very much so there will be some sort of global agreed upon rate in the future should btc become the main vehicle for transacting value in tail end of the next comming decades
<kanzure>
"this occurs because people are trying to squeeze more value" what is "this"?
<frankenmint>
this == phenomenon of centralization people == big mining warehouses who have real voting power at this moment, squeeze more value == control the shaping block size and inferred fee market
<frankenmint>
that was my train of thought as I was typing anyhow
<kanzure>
"voting power"?
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<kanzure>
also i'm not sure why you think i proposed a transaction fee...?
<frankenmint>
I didn't say you did, I'm saying it's the underlying reason why the phenomenon of centralization is occuring
<frankenmint>
in addition to the obvious reaping of the block reward subsidy
<kanzure>
er, the reason why centralization happens is because costliness, not because fees
<frankenmint>
I think its also because the incentives have now become that much greater
<frankenmint>
ie the price exploded
<frankenmint>
perhaps if we see a great pricing depression we can see a firesale and exodus of mining rigs to more end-users and proliferate decentralization, but I believe that due to human nature, ultmately we're always doomed to lean towards centralization as the incentives increase (value)
<kanzure>
you are very difficult to talk with
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<frankenmint>
I don't know I gave different reasons for my assertions then you did, I'm sorry you feel I'm difficult to talk with?
<frankenmint>
than
<kanzure>
and why did you make those assertions? i'm not understanding this.
<kanzure>
the whole point of pow is to make it prohibitively costly to create a fork; my scenario that i outlined was one where in the event of a consensus failure (such as a fraudulent single supernode running the "consensus") you need the costliness to go down because nobody else has been running such a large supernode anyway.
<kanzure>
i suppose you could just mandate to only use "oblivious"-style systems where supernodes are incapable of committing fraud... but i am not as well-versed about that type of solution.
<kanzure>
(as for "errors of omission" or "fraud by omission" you could probably fix that with increased privacy so that the supernode has no idea the actual details of the transactions it is processing, so it should in theory be possible to make it incapable to do selective censorship, in addition to the usual fraud proofs that are recommended- like proofs about double spending or proofs about inflation)
<frankenmint>
let's rewind here:
<frankenmint>
kanzure: i would still like to find a general solution to the problem of "even if you have good fraud proofs for all possible fraud, a single supernode might require so many resources as to make it impossible to setup an alternative supernode, due supernode costliness".
<frankenmint>
08:55 kanzure: on a related note, there may be no guarantees that fees could ever be sufficient for scaling towards a system that accepts 1e9 to 1e15 transactions/sec, even in a centralization regime
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<frankenmint>
i think 10k-member m-of-m at-least-1-honest-signer signing pool running as a supernode might always have no way for the network to recover consensus in the event of supernode fraud. what are you going to do, accept lots of reorgs while "0.1% capacity nodes" try to run things and compete to become the new supernode? bah
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<kanzure>
yes, having billions of dollars in fees doesn't mean that those fees are going to be useful for constructing trillion transaction per second systems. just like they obviously wont help accepting 2^^^^^^4 transactions per second.
<frankenmint>
how on earth would there be 20M trx per second without centralization?
<frankenmint>
its just not possible
<kanzure>
invoking centralization doesn't necessarily solve that type of problem, and my point is that invoking fees doesn't necessarily either :-)
<frankenmint>
I'm not really seeing a limiting factor, except the fact that high difficulty proofs of work are required, but that's because the network is extremely efficient. The other side of this is that scalability is desired but not yet required. I'm with you that btc software is in for some serious growing pains if we are to ever see 20MM trx per second, but at the same time lets analyze the existing demand across all
<frankenmint>
monetary systems currently
<frankenmint>
and factor in gradual population growth over time
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<kanzure>
i wonder if "trusted setup"'s costliness is the right type of costliness in the same sense that pow is costly and thus useful.
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<frankenmint>
so far I can find 500K as a record trx per second
<kanzure>
well as wumpus says, the demand for transaction inclusion is probably infinite, but you're looking at world records for some reason
<kanzure>
when you are designing a system you have to consider the transactions that should be included versus the ones that shouldn't (the invalid ones)
<kanzure>
not just the ones that happened to get into previous systems
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<nwilcox>
frankenmint: My current belief is that centralization occurs because lower cost operations outcompete others, and economies of scale help lower marginal cost.
<nwilcox>
So if the exchange price drops, I expect this would lead to *more* centralization of miners, because the smaller miners tend to be less efficient and will drop out earlier.
<nwilcox>
Notice several assumptions there.
<nwilcox>
Maybe a smaller miner can lower costs more efficiently (eg: they aren't paying rent on a giant warehouse).
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<fluffypony>
ryan-c: but it has a password AND a memorisable salt, so it must be doubly secure!
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<ryan-c>
fluffypony: he posted the passphrase
<fluffypony>
and he said he memorised the salt, which is lol
<frankenmint>
you guys know if that painting w/ the puzzle ever got solved?
<ryan-c>
fluffypony: well, the annoying thing is that he'll "win" this rigged game and claim it means things are secure.
<fluffypony>
yeah
<fluffypony>
and then he'll promptly go on to submit a PR to Ethereum :-P
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<ProfMannaro>
hello
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<frankenmint>
hey guys, you're the wizards, not me. So, someone who isnt me, had some funds that they tried to send. They sent them at first with too low of a fee...and they were super impatient. So now, those funds never confirmed, and being impatient, the person used a tool to erase the transaction off their wallet and tried to resend it, now with the proper fee. A few blocks have passed and now neither transactions sho
<frankenmint>
w as confimed but they both appear like double spend attempts. The poor guy just wants to send his money, what does he have to do?
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<nwilcox>
frankenmint: When you say "they boath appear like double spend attempts" I'm not sure what tool you are using which calls them double spends.
<frankenmint>
different block explorers
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<frankenmint>
they both say double spend attempts on the two different transactions
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<nwilcox>
frankenmint: Even though it seems obvious that miners would prefer the transaction with a higher fee, I'm not certain the status quo is to accept them.
<nwilcox>
Last I checked, ~6 mo ago, "replace by fee" wasn't a feature in the reference bitcoin-core node, although I am not familiar with actual miner behavior.
<frankenmint>
that's exactly what I thought
<c0rw1n>
are you sure it spent the exact same outputs?
<frankenmint>
I doubt it
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<frankenmint>
I think it emptied his wallet and sent the change to an exchange - this 2nd transaction he sent less to the exchange to account for the fee i think
<nwilcox>
I would expect any scary double spend badge means at least one TxOut appears in both transactions.
<midnightmagic>
frankenmint: see pm?
<frankenmint>
yea hold on
<midnightmagic>
k
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