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<wpwrak>
fun times: yesterday, a waste water pipe in my building clogged. when trying to unclog it, they apparently made a hole that went into a neighbouring house (not entirely sure about his bit yet)
<wpwrak>
but this did't solve the blockage. so water kept on building up and the pipe overflowed. apparently, it started around 10 am. at 10 pm or so, there was still water coming out of it.
<wpwrak>
this happened on the 7th floor. i'm safe and sound at the 14th. well, almost safe. because to try to stop the water, they closed the valves of the supply pipes, so supposedly nobody has water not, and
<wpwrak>
with all the water in places where it doesn't belong, the elevators had to be shut down - at first partially, then completely.
<wpwrak>
now, at the top floor (mine), we have a special construct, since the regular water pressure from height isn't sufficient (the tanks are just maybe 1-2 m above a shower head), so there's an extra pump.
<wpwrak>
and this one wasn't shut down, giving me at least access to the water in the tank. so for now, i do have water. lucky again :)
<wpwrak>
however, being in the 14th floor without elevators isn't so much fun. and we had a "war on terror" session scheduled just for last evening. luckily, an elevators was still working when i went to buy the beers.
<wpwrak>
when people started arriving, i had to walk down 14 floors to let them in, then together 13 floors up. at departure, the same. quite the exercise for a couch potato like me.
<wpwrak>
fortunateley, nobody slipped on the wet and contaminated floor. (all the water went down the staircase)
<ysionneau>
sounds like fun :)
<wpwrak>
the affected apartments looked like war zones. floor completely soaked, improvised barriers, and people trying to sweep the water out into corridor and staircase
<wpwrak>
they were doing that basically all day. we then recommended that those in the floors above wouldn't use kitchen sinks and toilets, to avoid adding more water to the mess.
<wpwrak>
(there's some puzzlement about what kind of waste water this is - some say it's from kitchens, others say it may contain other stuff)
<wpwrak>
today they should try to resolve it. let's see how it goes ...
<wpwrak>
ah yes, and one of my friends broke a tooth - for unrelated reasons - during out get-together
<wpwrak>
and for those curious, in the end the US won the war on terror :-( (though we determined this by counting territories, not a proper victory, since there was still no end in sight at ~4 am)
<whitequark>
war on terror?
<whitequark>
oh, a board game
<wpwrak>
yeah, great fun. but takes forever :)
<wpwrak>
(well, we're slow. i suppose better trained players could do it in a few hours.)
<larsc>
and less beer ;)
<wpwrak>
hmm, 6 people, about 8 liters of beer (divided among 4), two bottles of wine, a cider. nothing too wild
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a mandatory prerequisite for Neo900 to use it
<DocScrutinizer05>
no closed crap in Neo900
<ysionneau>
except some firmwares I guess but I don't know how it could be avoided
<ysionneau>
except spending a crazy amount of RE time
<DocScrutinizer05>
we *cannot* do it since... how would we get to know about the specs when they are not available?
<ysionneau>
like some osmocom guys did
<DocScrutinizer05>
use closed crap that is
<ysionneau>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise we might use a lot of nice powerful chips which are available but no datasheets for them anywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
useless for us
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't want to, and we _vcannot_ use such obscure components
<ysionneau>
sure
<ysionneau>
it's pretty obvious indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you shouldn't feel surprised that Neo900 comes with a modem that has public AT specs
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<ysionneau>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
and given the state of the once semi-public docs for ISI and the fact that those always lacked large parts needed for e.g. GPS, we wouldn't want to use an ISI modem even if we could
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Nokia-owned server that once provided ISI specs is down since years
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>What I didn't notice initially was a semi-hidden link to the wireless modem API server.<< http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/
<DocScrutinizer05>
BWAHAHAHA kanjii now
<DocScrutinizer05>
it been a timeout for years
<whitequark>
Evaluation of being fucked in front of husband of willow Tomoko appearances?Evaluation of being fucked in front of husband of willow Tomoko appearances?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the box finally got rooted, i'd say
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokia has a tendency to not even know *which* boxes they own out there in "the wild internet"
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody maintaining them, nobody has the credentials for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
nobody knows who (in Nokia) is paying for them
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<DocScrutinizer05>
there are subsubsub-contractors setting up some web service for Nokia on one of a bazillion machines Nokia hires at akamai, and once the contract with the subsubsub expires, those poor boxen idle orphaned and nobody even notices
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually /var/log/ fills up and the whole box goes defunct
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet the original poor box +still* is idling deaf and mute on its original IP
<DocScrutinizer05>
if you ever should be interested in the ISI specs from wirelssmodemapi, I got local copies here
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<wpwrak>
phew. seems that at the last pipe cleaning they cheated us and didn't actually clean it. so it eventually got to narrow for the general abuse such things suffer, and then the flood started.
<whitequark>
cover the waste drain pipes in PTFE!
<whitequark>
actually, I wonder why isn't it actually done. prolly cost
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<wpwrak>
hmmm, the building is some 45 years old. and we'd also have to consider what sort of stuff goes through these pipes - people don't exactly treat them kindly.
<wpwrak>
from diapers to sand and construction residues, pretty much everything has been found in there
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<whitequark>
I suppose daily treatment with abrasives won't fare on them lightly
<whitequark>
I wonder why are you aware so well of the content of your sewer...
<wpwrak>
people talk :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
people are dumbasses
<DocScrutinizer05>
never heard of any such congestion, only thing we had here with our probably 100 year old installation been roots of trees coming in through cracks in the piping. Now everything is coated with a plastic inlay
<DocScrutinizer05>
I heard of idiots actiually abusing their sewer as garbage bin, but they usually change that habit rather sooner than later. Also usually a TV report showing rats coming up the toilet after you disposed food there helps to educated those morons
<wpwrak>
yes, some people say stupid things. but when the guys doing the cleaning tell their stories, i'd consider them to be based on real events :)
<wpwrak>
also, don't expect people here to be as housebroken than in germany (in the same social class) :)
<wpwrak>
and yes, the "garbage disposal" issue is a big one. unfortunately, they keep on doing it. i mean, in a big building, who will ever find out, right ?
<whitequark>
umm
<whitequark>
garbage into sewer? how do you even do it?
<wpwrak>
maybe down the toilet
<wpwrak>
reliable sources once told me they had fished diapers out of the pipe ...
<wpwrak>
in this case, it was compounded by the pipe not having been cleaned. one theory is that this happened because drain doesn't connect directly to the vertical pipe but there are first two horizontal pipes that then form a t-junction
<wpwrak>
so the geniuses doing the scheduled maintenance may have sent their "probe" along the horizontal pipe only, kitchen to next kitchen, without ever having it go down the vertical part
<wpwrak>
and then, a few years later, the residues just get too much ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
I never actualy heard of such cleaning, except for those who abuse their toilet for disposing waste there
<DocScrutinizer05>
as a matter of fact, drainage pipe cleaning is a rarely done thing here in germany
<whitequark>
my pipes often clog with what is, I presume, hair
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can get away a hundered years without ever doing it
<whitequark>
a liter of concentrated NaOH poured down there fixes it well
<whitequark>
(which is what a "pipe cleaning solution" is, except like 100x cheaper)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, hair sometimes is a problem directly at the sink
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed pipe cleaner is 100* cheaper here than pure NaOH
<DocScrutinizer05>
also has metallic components, probably either Na or another alkali metal
<whitequark>
wat?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<whitequark>
what has metallic components? O_o
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not sure about Na
<whitequark>
are you crazy?
<whitequark>
pure Na can exist under a layer of oil
<DocScrutinizer05>
but evidently grayish little metallic balls in it
<whitequark>
and sure as hell if you pour something even remotely resembling Na into drain it will explode
<DocScrutinizer05>
which dissolve rapidly in water, creating H2
<whitequark>
I don't believe that
<whitequark>
pipe cleaner is an aqueous solution of either acid or base
<whitequark>
concentrated
<wpwrak>
(pipe cleaning) don't forget that this is a large building. 14 floors (the top floor being duplex plus terraces), four apartments on each floor. puts some strain on the water system
<whitequark>
no way something that survives in it as little metal balls will "dissolve rapidly in water"
<wpwrak>
while you're at it, make it radioactive, so make it easier to check that it was properly distributed
<wpwrak>
#s/so/to/
<DocScrutinizer05>
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrreiniger >>Die Granulate bestehen neben den alkalischen Stoffen aus Nitrat, Natriumcarbonat und Aluminiumkörnchen.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: "absurd" eh?
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I could've known about Al dissolving in alkaline medium
<DocScrutinizer05>
if only I properly checked that pipe cleaner composition
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: still don't understand what the granules are made of
<whitequark>
all instances of "granular drain cleaner" in english mean "dry NaOH shipped in granules"
<DocScrutinizer05>
MaOH, Na-carbonate, Na- nitrate, Al balls
<DocScrutinizer05>
NaOH
<whitequark>
wait, is it dry?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<whitequark>
oooooh
<whitequark>
sure, then you could even have Na balls there, as NaOH is strongly hygroscopic and would keep moisture away
<whitequark>
(but it would still explode in contact with water, and be really damn expensive)
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what I thought so far
<whitequark>
dry drain cleaner isn't sold here at all, hence my error
<wpwrak>
explosive pipe cleaning. i should suggest that :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but thanks you I learned it's Al
<whitequark>
either liquid or gel
* wpwrak
wonders whether i should send a few liters of concentrated HCl down these pipes, as a preventive measure :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: HCl is sold as a drain cleaner too
<whitequark>
depends on the part of the world
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet it's not sold in Russia thanks to frequent misuse causing severe problems in pipes
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: unlikely
<wpwrak>
i kinda wonder what these pipes can handle. i mean *something* must attack them, right ?
<wpwrak>
maybe they wouldn't like peroxide so much ...
<whitequark>
wpwrak: plastic pipes are very very chemically inert
<wpwrak>
that's so pre-plastic :)
<whitequark>
prolonged storage of acid in them, or maybe even bases, would surely make them brittle
<whitequark>
or actually if it's HDPE with no plastifier, then not even that
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: they are supposed to be either "Steingut" covered with a glss-like coating, or PVC
<whitequark>
PVC, right, pipes aren't made of HDPE
<whitequark>
I wonder why
<wpwrak>
well, the ones in my apartment are plastic. the ones that went to the scrapyard were troubled-looking metal. and i don't think a lot of other people started their tenure with a thorough renovation :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
glass-like
<DocScrutinizer05>
metal pipes? :-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
never ever used here for drain
<whitequark>
sure, that's been common until recently
<whitequark>
and is not a good idea
<wpwrak>
"thermal bronce", no less, for fresh water :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
except directly under your bathtub etc
<wpwrak>
and some of them lead, of course
<whitequark>
especially not, say, bronze or lead pipes in a chemical lab where you work with azides
<DocScrutinizer05>
drain blackwater pipes are earthenware covered by glaze
<DocScrutinizer05>
or PVC
<DocScrutinizer05>
nowadays
<whitequark>
earthenware?..
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<DocScrutinizer05>
fresh water pipes been lead in very old days, then steel, now also PVC
<whitequark>
fresh water pipes out of PVC is actually very recent development
<whitequark>
I wonder if it's a good idea to subject PVC 24/7 to hot water
<DocScrutinizer05>
fresh wate plastic pipes i'm not sure if they really are PVC, though I guess they are
<DocScrutinizer05>
OOOH they actually usees Grauguss for drainage pipes
<wpwrak>
in argentina, they use metal for this, and scrape off the rust every once in a while. and eventually, of course, the pipes get thin enough to break. that then goes on for another 5-10 years, until people finally decide they need to replace the system, not just the 50 cm involved in today's flooding.
<wpwrak>
in the building where i lived before, about the same age, 20x3 apartments, so similar size, that had reached this terminal stage. there had been some water mishap almost every day. something like a year after i moved out, they finally decided to fix the mess.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I caled it freewheeling and clamp diiode
<DocScrutinizer05>
advantage of a RC-snubber: can place it across the relay contacts, wil compensate for inductance in source as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
if your switch is *behind* the inductance (think: long cable to an engine) then your clamp diode will fail
<DocScrutinizer05>
R-C snubber: not
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<paul_boddie>
I would have thought all the pipes in Argentina would have been made from silver. :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Total time for dissipation can vary, but it will usually last for a few milliseconds<< HAHA, I've seen (fat) relays taking seconds to disengage after the controlling DC got switched off
<DocScrutinizer05>
("fat" == 1200A on every of the 3 contacts
<DocScrutinizer05>
)
<DocScrutinizer05>
motors however evidently stop muuuuch faster with a clamp diode
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<DocScrutinizer05>
since they produce electric energy from the rotation that in turn heats up the motor and the clamp diode
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you simply open circuit the motor, it can't feed the electric energy anywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
which always makes me wonder how you actually can PWM-control a DC motor
<DocScrutinizer05>
isn't it extremely counter-productive when curent continues to flow around in a circle via the clamp diode, during the PWM off periods?
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, when you think of a set where there's a huuuge inductivity/choke in series to the motor, then that series thing could easily work fine with a clamp diode. I guess the solution to this paradox is frequency: when motor stops to act like a inductivity and starts to create energy from motion instead
<whitequark>
hmmmmmm
<whitequark>
hang on
<whitequark>
nevermind
<DocScrutinizer05>
your PWM frequency must be high enoufgh so the inductivity of the motor is more "significant" than the ElectroMotoricForce
<whitequark>
(I think it's called "electromotive" in english)
<DocScrutinizer05>
once the current across the motor approaches that one the motor would generate from EMF alone, you're leaving the timespan where inductivity did its job
<whitequark>
also that would explain a few things about my PWM config and why it's shitty
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly you're right on electromotive
<whitequark>
ugh, I really want a scope
<whitequark>
but spent all free money on EHSM tickets and hotel
<whitequark>
also I'm really excited about things that must be arriving to my place in ~1.5 weeks
<whitequark>
some lumber, copper sheet, aluminium bar. gotta mill it all
<whitequark>
I want to make some Al companion cubes
<whitequark>
could even try anodizing them
<DocScrutinizer05>
errwut?
<whitequark>
errwut about what?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Al companion cubes
<whitequark>
you didn't play Portal? O_o
* DocScrutinizer05
wonders if that#s stuff for your guests
<paul_boddie>
I mean that he's obsessed with it. Apart from detours like doing Zarch/Virus.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Elite: Dangerous Premium Beta is Live!
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess *I* ust be obsessed to even *consider* getting a windows machine just for that
<whitequark>
hm, actually I wonder if I could even sell those cubes on ebay
<whitequark>
there seem to be a lot of plushy ones but not really any metal ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
Minimum recommended hardware specification: Direct X 11 Quad Core CPU ( 4 x 2Ghz is a reasonable minimum) 2 GB System RAM (more is always better) DX 10 hardware GPU with 1GB video ram Nvidia GTX 260 ATI 4870HD Internet connection
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: why bother with windows machine?
<whitequark>
I haven't seen a game that wouldn't run with $ wine game.exe
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha, see above
<whitequark>
so?
<whitequark>
they usually are more performant on linux than windows, even, despite the "emulation"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I failed epically to even make elite:last-frontier run in a dos emu
<whitequark>
dosbox does the trick in basically all cases
<DocScrutinizer05>
it didn't for me
<whitequark>
weird
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, my game-mad friend (the postal/portal/GTA one) who also incidentally is a professional sysop also was quite puzzled why it doesn't work for me
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that tought me to not run games in emulators
<DocScrutinizer05>
it turns out that nobody who suggests such thing actually ever tried his own dogfood
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I did, for lots and lots of games
<whitequark>
hence the surprise
<whitequark>
both wine and dosbox, dozens with each
<whitequark>
with very few problems and hardly any unfixable with a single google query
<whitequark>
well, at worst you can use virtualbox or qemu for DOS stuff
<whitequark>
I even played DirectX (2D) games emulated in virtualbox
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, my experience regarding that is 10 to 15 years old, so maybe not actual anymore, I admit
<whitequark>
a lot has changed since that
<whitequark>
wine has *massively* improved
<DocScrutinizer05>
heard that, yes
<whitequark>
although I think it still can't run photoshop
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<whitequark>
that really says things about the quality of code in photoshop
<whitequark>
and the absurd measures the windows team went to ensure compatibility with megatons of such shit
<DocScrutinizer05>
would be a dream to play elite:dangerous on my usual workstation, but then, this station has zilch proper graca
<whitequark>
what's the graphics card you have?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess I need a proper gamer station for that
<whitequark>
I actually tried Portal, which is kinda graphics heavy, on *integrated intel graphics*
<whitequark>
it went ok
<whitequark>
not really "omg this is beautiful" but more than playable
<DocScrutinizer05>
then I will be fine with it, since that's exactly what I got here
<whitequark>
but i915 stopped being shit only since ivy bridge, 1/2 shit in sandy bridge
<whitequark>
before that it's only sufficient to scroll your terminal or something
* DocScrutinizer05
tries hard to recall what is in there
<whitequark>
lspci?
<dos1>
I have ivy bridge and both portals work fine on it
<dos1>
well, on full hd settings have to be quite moderate, but on 1366x768 laptop screen it runs quite smoothly even on quite high settings
* whitequark
has 1920x1080 screen
<DocScrutinizer05>
"driver: i915"
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: nonono
<whitequark>
show us the cpuinfo
<DocScrutinizer05>
which one?
<whitequark>
sandy/ivy bridge has integrated i915, hence the revision applies to both cpu and graphics
<whitequark>
model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3517U CPU @ 1.90GHz
<whitequark>
this line
<DocScrutinizer05>
I5-3450
<dos1>
i5-3210M here
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: that's more than sufficient
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn, and I have 4 of those ;-P
<whitequark>
well, you have one graphics core...
<whitequark>
intel even stopped calling them CPUs and started calling them SoCs somewhere at sandy bridge or so
<whitequark>
there's some contention on whether it still applies if you have other entropy sources
<whitequark>
but I would just upgrade to >3.2.13
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<dos1>
didn't you mean 3.12.3?
<whitequark>
hm, probably
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<wpwrak>
(carbon-passivated surface) you must be kidding ;-) cleaning of drain pipes consists of sending down a rotating metal cable that will "drill" through the obstruction. anything "surface" will not be around for very long :)
<whitequark>
I think cast iron doesn't have a passivated surface, rather bulk
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<wpwrak>
(stainless steel) well, i do actually have one piece of that. it's a cover around my water heater. and this one has indeed resisted the elements rather well so far (~4 years). of course, this is a custom-made piece.
<wpwrak>
yes, bulk pretty much seems to be the concept there - don't fight the corrosion, just make the pipe walls thick enough that it will take a long time to eat through them