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Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: wow I didn't even knew there were 'reviews' in the shop :-)
<wolfspraul> will replace creloaded with a very plain one anyway (thought not on top of list right now)
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<wolfspraul> whitequark: testing a unicode char :-) 本 NanoNote
<wolfspraul> let's see whether that comes out right in the logs in a little while
<wolfspraul> maybe you are right and the utf-8 problem is already solved, then just my notes are outdated...
<roh> heh. unicode and solved ;)
<roh> sometimes you are really funny *g*
<wolfspraul> something not solved?
<wpwrak> that's chinese diode. see, that's why china dominates the electronics market today - they've known semiconductors for centuries already. they even have them in their font ;-)
<wolfspraul> it sounded like roh thinks Unicode doesn't solve anything
<wolfspraul> so I was curious to understand his point
<wpwrak> i think he was just pleasantly surprised that unicode didn't cause trouble :)
<wolfspraul> utf-8 seems to work well
<wolfspraul> whitequark: cool, you are right!
<wolfspraul> the utf-8 problems seems not to be in eggdrop, but the html generator
<wolfspraul> the Chinese Ben character does not show up correctly (in my browser at least) on http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2011-11-18.log.html#t03:22
<wolfspraul> but it does show correctly at http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2011-11-18#1321586529;
<wolfspraul> for the links, I am wondering how we can keep the old links working if we switch to your view
<wolfspraul> both seem to use timestamps, but the links we have right now only use the minute #thh:mm
<wolfspraul> whereas yours go all the way to seconds and what not?
<wolfspraul> I could do a regex redirect to take out the 't' and ':', but your engine would need to search for the next entry...
<wolfspraul> can the #1321; automatically find the next entry, that is #1321586529; ?
<roh> wolfspraul: irc has no concept of charset, so either its 7bit and it works for everyone, or you have some understanding to use utf8 like we do. or another charset. there is just no 'field' in irc which enables one to fetch which one it is automagically
<roh> chinese diode :) yeah
<roh> if we have a unicode console we can do also a bit of nice ui...
<roh> ☑
<roh> use ncurses_w ;)
<wolfspraul> roh: that's ok but we can assume/define utf-8 to be our charset on this channel
<wolfspraul> there goes your 'field'
<roh> well.. yeah. manual mode
<roh> 'inband signalling' (cause we talked about it)
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> exactly
<whitequark> wolfspraul: it's easy to fix the links
<whitequark> just make a two-line js which will get the timestamp in #txx:xx format, convert it to unix one and redirect to my irclog
<wolfspraul> yeah I think if you could make #1321; work I can see an upgrade path
<wolfspraul> js?
<wolfspraul> the link that already exists somewhere does not have all precision
<wolfspraul> so best I can convert it to (without js, just regex Apache redirect) is #1321;
<whitequark> wolfspraul: yes, and, as I've converted the html logs, my ones do not have all the precision
<wolfspraul> but then you have to search for the next match, right now such a url won't find anything
<whitequark> besides that
<whitequark> the #hash part does not get to the webserver
<whitequark> it's just on the client side
<wolfspraul> that was my next question how well your system would work with simple text browsers or non-javascript browsers
<wolfspraul> or wget, curl etc.
<whitequark> wolfspraul: it handles both the simple browsers, in which case the #hash is handled by regular html means
<whitequark> and the complex ones, in which it uses a JS handler
<whitequark> graceful degradation FTW!
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<wolfspraul> I still don't understand what to do with a link that only has minute precision
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<whitequark> well
<wolfspraul> the best I can convert it to is #1321;
<whitequark> I was converting it to a corresponding unix timestamp with the seconds set to 00
<whitequark> I offer a following solution
<wolfspraul> doesn't work
<whitequark> you make an apache redirect to a specially-crafted html page. That page will have a <meta refresh> for the JS-less browsers which will just redirect to whole day in my logger
<whitequark> as you can't get a hash part on the webserver anyway, that's fine
<whitequark> and also it will have JS code which will get the hash part on the client, then construct a proper unix timestamp and forward to #111222333 on my logger
<wolfspraul> can you make your backend smarter in that a partial link like #1321; will search forward to the next match?
<whitequark> wolfspraul: the #thh:mm part does not reach the webserver
<whitequark> you can't make an apache redirect for it
<whitequark> if you don't believe me, use tcpdump
<whitequark> when a browser fetches something like http://google.com/#anchor, it sends an HTTP request to http://google.com/
<wolfspraul> ah, yeah
<whitequark> and then finds element with id="anchor" and scrolls to it
<wolfspraul> skipped over that
<wolfspraul> true true
<wolfspraul> ok then, I rest my case until I thought it through :-)
<whitequark> okay
<wolfspraul> worst case we can break old links, I can probably find them in most places and update manually
<whitequark> wolfspraul: as I've said: a simple JS snippet does the forwarding, nothing will be lost
<whitequark> something like var re=/t(\d{2}):(\d{2})/;var t=re.match(document.hash);document.location="http://irclog.whitequark.org/$channel/$day/"+Date.parse("$day").setUTCHours(t[0], t[1]).getTime();
<whitequark> I'm assuming that $channel is, well, channel and $date is yyyy-mm-dd
<wolfspraul> I was talking with Jon about feeding the #qi-hardware channel into twitter
<wolfspraul> that way I could finally solve my continued unwillingness to 'maintain' the qi-hardware feed on Twitter
<wolfspraul> and surprisingly he thought it's a good idea
<wolfspraul> I thought it would violate the twitter tos or be seen as rude or so
<wolfspraul> but.. seems not
<whitequark> that's insane
<wolfspraul> he suggested a qi-noise feed though
<wolfspraul> as for naming
<whitequark> #qi-hw sometimes makes hundreds messages a day
<wolfspraul> whitequark: what is insane? :-)
<whitequark> no one would ever follow that
<whitequark> at least no one you'd want to follow you
<whitequark> i.e. men who know what to do with their time.
<wolfspraul> depends on how people use twitter
<whitequark> well I use it :D
<wolfspraul> how many people do you follow, and how do you follow them? you read everything?
<whitequark> I follow 34
<whitequark> and yes, I read every tweet
<whitequark> that's about 200 tweets a day, and that's more than enough
<wolfspraul> do you follow #qi-hardware on Twitter?
<whitequark> there are some news, like @lwn or @phoronix, and some random people, like classmates who're nevertheless interesting or e.g. @mislav
<whitequark> hm
<whitequark> didn't knew qi-hw has twitter
<wolfspraul> Jon said 'make a new feed #qi-noise', so that wouldn't catch anybody following #qi-hardware by surprise
<wolfspraul> oh it's pretty much dead/unmaintained
<whitequark> well it doesn't
<wolfspraul> and I enjoy more making irc work better than diving into the Twitter world
<whitequark> no @qi_hardware account exists
<whitequark> well, there are generally two twitter strategies
<whitequark> 1) tell about interesting events, i.e. new devices, new firmwares etc. (the "convenient and useful way")
<whitequark> that'll be relatively rare
<whitequark> 2) tell about every fly that's got in your office (the "I'm a 13-year-old girl way")
<wolfspraul> we could have some command in irc to trigger that
<whitequark> yes, this is much better
<whitequark> and a whitelist I think
<whitequark> so that a random spammer couldn't spoil official account
<wolfspraul> so every line could go to qi-noise, but you need some command to make it show up in qi-hardware
<wolfspraul> nah I wouldn't want to maintain a whitelist, better to just have a well behaved community culture
<whitequark> I doubt that @qi-noise should ever exist
<whitequark> for what?
<whitequark> unlike irc, twitter has a timeline, where each message takes pretty much space, and is spawning desktop notifications
<wolfspraul> I know little about Twitter customs and behavior, so I take your word for granted.
<wolfspraul> how about people following certain hash tags/themes
<whitequark> you may also ask ronkjeffries
<wolfspraul> if we had a qi-noise where each irc line would go to, that would be a way to connect to that
<whitequark> wolfspraul: hashtags generally follow the two described strategies
<whitequark> either it's some random nonsense like #welovejustinbieber
<whitequark> or a carefully prepared tweet with proper length, embedded links etc.
<wolfspraul> ok, but if we would setup a qi-noise feed and pump all irc messages into that, it would allow people following hashtags to see stuff they are interested in, no?
<whitequark> it would have way too low SND
<whitequark> *SNR
<whitequark> I don't know anyone who actually follows some hashtag
<whitequark> (know != follow)
<wolfspraul> if nobody follows, why do they exist?
<whitequark> hashtags generally have a lot of traffic with them
<wolfspraul> I think it's a common usage, at least from what I hear
<whitequark> "do not follow" like in "follow people"
<whitequark> hashtag is just an explicit keyword
<whitequark> it allows you to search quickly for latest news on trending topics
<wolfspraul> ok, first and best idea is to have some command that makes an 'official' tweet on qi-hardware
<whitequark> technically that's fine and corresponds with the way twitter works
<whitequark> I'm just concerned a bit about social issues
<whitequark> but well, I'm not the owner of qi-hw
<wolfspraul> but some people seem to be in some sort of frenzy to post as many messages as possible
<wolfspraul> every few minutes
<wolfspraul> one would almost want to recommend a good mental health doctor to them :-)
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> and that's exactly why qi-hw should not behave the same way
<whitequark> they're annying and look silly
<whitequark> only the... similar people do follow them
<whitequark> I guess to raise one's self-esteem...
<wolfspraul> and then they are happy when they reach 10k posts, 20k, etc.
<wolfspraul> oh sure, no need to do that so your feedback and really very appreciated
<whitequark> and they follow thousands of people
<wolfspraul> and actually read none of it, let alone think
<whitequark> no man on earth could ever read 10k+ tweets a day
<whitequark> pointless tweets :D
<wolfspraul> that's why I thought feeding the entire irc feed in there could make them happy :-)
* whitequark facepalms
<whitequark> does you have a need in a flock of idiots flooding #qi-hw?
<whitequark> *do
<whitequark> I doubt that :)
<wolfspraul> that's tempting
<wolfspraul> ok anyway, we are joking. yes, it should serve some good purpose. we have some degree of responsibility to use those tools wisely, I think.
<whitequark> exactly
<wolfspraul> so... if we ever do this, then first just with some command to qi-bot that routes to the qi-hardware twitter feed
<wolfspraul> but no whitelist
<wolfspraul> I hope that we share enough common ground for that not to be needed.
<wolfspraul> and I would encourage anyone who has any interesting/bigger thing to announce or say about qi hardware to just use that command
<whitequark> hm
<wolfspraul> which we don't have anyway right now, so it's just a plan
<whitequark> IRC is less known these days
<whitequark> so I guess that may work
<whitequark> I heard that ten years ago it was as popular as facebook (compared to the size of internet audience)
<whitequark> (I'm 18 btw)
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> what about the absolute number of users?
<wolfspraul> I think irc was always underground/techie
<whitequark> that may be just the russian specifity
<wolfspraul> there were others like iqc or so that were big, aol messenger? (I forgot)
<whitequark> icq=aol
<wolfspraul> icq, yeah
<whitequark> well I don't believe my eyes
<wolfspraul> how is the absolute number of irc users developing? I don't know
<wolfspraul> what i find interesting about the model is that the big servers mostly seem to be community supported
<wolfspraul> an amazing achievement
<whitequark> I've finally met someone who not only does not hate icq, but hardly knows what's it
<whitequark> then, I guess, that irc statistics is indeed the russian specifity. 5 years ago, everyone knows what icq is and greatly overuses it
<whitequark> and mIRC is a popular blonde-talking toolpiece of software
<whitequark> *piece
<whitequark> maybe it's because providers had not charged for the access to it in the dialup times or whatever. I don't actually know
<whitequark> whew
<whitequark> google even knows that "мирка", a russian slang word for mIRC, corresponds to the program's name
<wolfspraul> ok but how about absolute irc usage?
<wolfspraul> let me quickly check whether there are freenode stats...
<kyak> there are global irc stats sites overthere..
<whitequark> first, icq has eaten almost all of the non-techie part of market years ago
<kyak> the number of users has dropped much
<whitequark> and then gtalk with facebook (and its clones) came in and finished that
<wolfspraul> "In 1998, the network had about 200 users and less than 20 channels. Ten years down the line the network currently peaks at just over 70,000 users"
<xiangfu> kyak, the i386 SDK and toolchian is building. so it will be on server in next 24 hours. :) after build success I will send one email to list.
<whitequark> wolfspraul: that's just freenode
<kyak> icq is dead, too (if compared to what it used to be several years ago, in terms of amount of users)
<kyak> xiangfu: cool :)
<wolfspraul> so what's our conclusion now? sorry got lost. irc is dead?
<whitequark> kyak: why "too"? irc isn't dead, it just has a well-defined audience
<xiangfu> kyak, just sent out the new release email. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Release-2-11-11-13-2.JPG :)
<wolfspraul> we discuss that irc is dead on an irc channel?
<whitequark> kyak: and thankfully it does not include the majority of internet users
<kyak> whitequark: irc is well dead
<wolfspraul> ok
<kyak> we are the mammoth :)
<wolfspraul> lemme work on a temporary couple-year eggdrop module to feed twitter, while that's the hype
<whitequark> kyak: I do not agree.
<wolfspraul> not even worth upstreaming, so temporary it is :-)
<kyak> 2000-2004 were the golden age of irc
<whitequark> wolfspraul: I bet someone already wrote that
<kristianpaul> oh, qi-hw , that milkymist on the left call atention for sure
<whitequark> wolfspraul: also the twitter API isn't quite trivial
<kyak> there are twitter to irc eggdrop scripts, if that's what yo uare looking for
<wolfspraul> how about the other way round?
<whitequark> kyak: the ones which I have found atm are all using API v1
<whitequark> i.e. the "easy http one"
<kyak> wolfspraul: the other way around, too
<whitequark> which has been removed afaik
<wolfspraul> we want some command here in the channel that allows us to send to the qi-hardware twitter feed
<whitequark> ah, twitter to irc.
<kyak> whitequark: there are ones using oath api
<kyak> how about this one?
<kristianpaul> hum...maybe the white background , but i dont dicuss on likes
<kyak> btw, twitter on irc. And you are saying irc is not dead? :)
<whitequark> kyak: twitter is a temporary hype
<kristianpaul> oh, sharim.org asterisk, what happened with freedom diagram..
<kyak> whitequark: what is the purpose?
<whitequark> kyak: I dunno
<kristianpaul> i'm not against that link but, i wonder how is related to the goals green block
<wolfspraul> kyak: the purpose is that everybody is able to quickly send a tweet to the qi-hardware twitter feed without having to deal with the twitter gui or apps
<kyak> whitequark: i mean, what is the purpose of posting to twitter from irc?
<kyak> ah
<wolfspraul> the way it is right now is that a few people have the password, but nobody posts (understandably :-)) for example I'm just too lazy to login
<wolfspraul> first we thought we just pump the entire stream into twitter, but then whitequark said it's much better if that would happen only for selected messages, with some command to the bot
<wolfspraul> as for dead or not, I don't think the whole world will converge around one means of communication, ever
<wolfspraul> of course twitter is huge and growing
<wolfspraul> and tons of others, here there, all sorts of things
<wolfspraul> I think even sms is still growing
<wolfspraul> and operator executives were laughing their asses off 15 years ago that their huge sms profits just wouldn't stop because users were so hooked to sending 20 cent messages that cost the network 0.01 cents to deliver
<whitequark> 3g is growing, and jabber/gtalk/italk (or whatever you'll call it) has waaay much better UX than sms
<wolfspraul> what i like about irc is the fact that it's decentralized and the servers are mostly operated by community
<whitequark> yeah 0.01 cents is a huge exaggregation
<wolfspraul> I find that amazing
<wolfspraul> kyak: can you setup an eggdrop script to allow us to post to twitter?
<wolfspraul> I can also just remember the url to the script you posted for the next chance I get to it
<wolfspraul> it's not really urgent I think, but a nice idea imho
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<wolfspraul> ok I added a todo item for now, good idea I think! http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#To_Do
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Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<kyak> wolfspraul: i can do that
<kyak> gonna experiment with my own bot first..
<wolfspraul> kyak: wonderful, thank you
<wolfspraul> no rush on this, it's just an idea because I keep wondering what to do with our twitter account
<wolfspraul> one day I was very close to just deleting it, but that felt wrong too
<roh> heeeh
<wpwrak> reading the irc/twitter discussion ...
<wpwrak> twittering without using twitter. so it's basically like people eating at the table (irc). and every once in a while, someone drops a morsel under the table, for the dogs. that would be twitter. i find the analogy strangely satisfying :-)
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<wolfspraul> I see it much more practical. there should be an easy way for anybody in the qi community to push out a quick tweet, without much ado
<wolfspraul> for me it's not about a vs b, I don't care. I just irc because it's the best and most convenient for me.
<wolfspraul> so I can finally send a tweet right here from the channel, phew
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> and then Jon told me he liked the idea a lot and was at some point in time already planning a deeper irc/identica integration (which afaik didn't happen in the end or so far)
<wpwrak> yeah, dunno about twitter. i know it exists and people i "follow" by other means gather information there
<wpwrak> i rarely find any pointers to twitter useful, though. i.e., the one item linked to is very often all that's relevant there
<wpwrak> regarding irc, it has become a conferencing tool. and it was never a "commercial mainstream" thing. so it's not surprising that the masses don't use it.
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<xiangfu> wpwrak, we can connect people here to -> 'masses' by the eggdrop-twitter. if it's double way. that mean. people here(geek) <-- connect --> 'masses'
<xiangfu> woakas, that is really cool idea.
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, ^
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<wpwrak> hmm, i somehow doubt we need a proxy "follower" ;-)
<xiangfu> if the twitter reply message can forward to irc much cooler. or maybe all @sharism @qi-hardware message can forward to irc channel will be cool
<xiangfu> kyak: there are too many social networking. if we can connect IRC with ping.fm will be cool.
<wpwrak> but nobody posts there :)
<xiangfu> wpwrak, wolfgang will do that. :) if have this feature. you and I may also want do that. because it is so simple for people there.
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<wpwrak> oh, i can see a point in having a means to push out messages to twitter. but you don't need a back channel, since the original message wuold be here anyway
<kyak> xiangfu: let's start with twitter :)
<xiangfu> kyak, yes. sure. I am just saying. software always can get better. :)
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<kyak> !tweet a cautious test
<qi-bot> unable to convert date-time string "2011-11-18 12:47:10 +0000"
<kyak> !tweet a cautious test 2
<qi-bot> Tweet created: http://twitter.com/qihardware ( 137512342425575424@qihardware - 1s ago via qi-bot )
<qi-bot> Jon Phillips: Wolfgang told me I'm too nice and I need to ask people and clients for money more often :) Ok, hire @fabricatorz @sharism @qihardware :) ( 131619302020366336@rejon - 2w, 2d, 6h, 17m ago via Ping.fm )
<qi-bot> Pinguins Móveis: Pinguins Móveis 24x7 já saiu! http://t.co/A8NShcjv ▸ Principais notícias de hoje via @qihardware ( 133557904149192707@pinguinsmoveis - 1w, 3d, 21h, 53m, 41s ago via Paper.li )
<qi-bot> Michael McRoberts: TFI Friday!! #FF @4sqHackCardiff @AbstractCode @_hannahcat @_laughingsquid @charavel @qandrew @qihardware @23Becka @_radiowaves @5tevenw ( 134904790961487874@TheArduinoGuy - 1w, 4h, 41m, 38s ago via Twitter for Mac )
<qi-bot> sunnysujan: Copyleft=A great idea=invention.Copyleft Hardware=A great new idea sustainably & scalably executed=innovation #ICT4D @qihardware #Nanonote ( 135741867613626369@sunnysujan - 4d, 21h, 15m, 24s ago via web )
<xiangfu> kyak, wow.
<kyak> now, if someone could @mention qihardware to see if it works back?
<kyak> users allowed to post from the channel need to added by hand.. i think this is reasonable... so whoever want to post, please tell me
<qi-bot> xiangfu: @qihardware test for kyak's irc twitter bot. thanks kyak ( 137513057772507137@xiangfu - 19s ago via Ping.fm )
<kyak> nice :)
<kyak> xiangfu: and it's not my script, thanks go to someone else
<whitequark> !tweet does this really work?
<qi-bot> You are not able to tweet in #qi-hardware. You must have (vogmn|vogmn flags), or be (op voice) in #qi-hardware. Both of which you aren't. :P
<whitequark> heh
<kyak> whitequark: one more time :)
<whitequark> !tweet does this really work now?
<qi-bot> You are not able to tweet in #qi-hardware. You must have (vogmn|vogmn flags), or be (op voice) in #qi-hardware. Both of which you aren't. :P
<kyak> hm
<xiangfu> now. it's kyak's bot. :)
<kyak> whitequark: and one more time :)
<kyak> xiangfu: you can try, too
<wolfspraul> kyak: can't you allow anyone in the channel to tweet?
<xiangfu> !tweet a new release 2011-11-13 for Ben Nanonote come out. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2011-11-13
<qi-bot> You are not able to tweet in #qi-hardware. You must have (vogmn|vogmn flags), or be (op voice) in #qi-hardware. Both of which you aren't. :P
<kyak> wolfspraul: i can, but it's not secure, how do you think?
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<wolfspraul> I think it's secure
<kyak> ok.. figure it out later.. need to go now
<wolfspraul> sure, thanks a lot for taking it this far!
<wolfspraul> yes, I believe we should open it up until we have actual cases of abuse, then we can think about the smartest way to address them
<kyak> ok, it should be open now
<kyak> and i need to go :)
<wolfspraul> cya
<wolfspraul> thanks again
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: wanna try your release tweet again?
<wolfspraul> :-)
<xiangfu> !tweet a new release 2011-11-13 for Ben Nanonote come out. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2011-11-13
<wpwrak> "you must have vogon flags" ? seems appropriate. some of what qi-bot now spews out sounds like vogon lyrics :)
<kristianpaul> xiangfu: nice quoute :)
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<xiangfu> ok. it still only listen kyak's order.
<kristianpaul> haha
<kristianpaul> :-)
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<kyak> ..and it should work now for everyone
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<kristianpaul> !tweet Qi Hardware is sharing hardware - We document all steps necessary to build hardware so anyone may join us or reproduce our hardware.
<qi-bot> Tweet created: http://twitter.com/qihardware [truncated] (... or reproduce our ha>|<rdware....) ( 137579929704472577@qihardware - 0s ago via qi-bot )
<kristianpaul> hum as i remind the message you be shirnked before post
<wpwrak> you mean qi-bit should reject messages that are too long ?
<kristianpaul> yes, and warning about it
<wpwrak> naw, just silently drop. if it's still not there after ten minutes, you have warning enough :)
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<kristianpaul> he
<GNUtoo-dekstop> hi
<GNUtoo-dekstop> how's the GPS going?
<wpwrak> yeah, when does production start ? :)
<kristianpaul> hi GNUtoo-dekstop
<kristianpaul> acquisition and tracking are WIP
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: as soon as position fix is achieved
<wpwrak> heh :)
<kristianpaul> ;-)
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<kyak> kristianpaul: you can insert \n in your message to split it, i think
<kristianpaul> GNUtoo-dekstop: the idea and curret work is to have a dedicated base band procesor that will acquire and track signals the the navigation data could be extracted and be procesed by other cpu in order to get a fix point
<kristianpaul> all inside the fpga and using mikymist core as a base of course
<GNUtoo-dekstop> ok
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