ChanServ changed the topic of #zig to: zig programming language | | be excellent to each other | channel logs:
<martinium> when I downloaded the tar my system auto extracts for me on double-click
<martinium> so I moved the extracted folder to my home directory
<andrewrk> I can have it print the directories it looked in
<martinium> only other thing I did was link the binary to my /usr/local/bin directory to have zig command available system-wide
<andrewrk> right, ok, let me have it check realpath too, and then that will work fine
<andrewrk> just a minute
<martinium> take your time
<andrewrk> martinium, which version are you using?
<martinium> 0.2.0
<andrewrk> ah. I highly recommend master branch
<martinium> ah
<martinium> I was wondering whether I should have used master or a versioned tar
<andrewrk> we're about to release 0.3.0 in ~1 week
<martinium> I had downloaded the zig-linux-x86_64-0.2.0
<andrewrk> I think 0.2.0 doesn't even have the code to find the std lib
<andrewrk> so that's why it's not working
<martinium> now that makes total sense
<martinium> :)
<martinium> let me get master real quick
<andrewrk> there's a download link for that too
<martinium> you should maybe put a date next to master
<martinium> so people can gauge whether it would be more worthwhile compared to the latest versioned copy
<andrewrk> the date is always whatever day it is :)
<andrewrk> I don't think there has been a day without a commit to master branch in a long time
<martinium> that is good news
<martinium> I really like the integration of the build tooling
<martinium> one less thing to learn
<martinium> much more efficient
<andrewrk> one less thing your users have to have installed too
<andrewrk> the build system is still at the proof of concept stage. I wouldn't say it's particularly ergonomic yet
<andrewrk> it works though, and it runs zig's own test suite
<andrewrk> and stage2 build
<martinium> good news master build works well
<martinium> I will use this going forward
<martinium> may I make a suggestion to you for the lang?
<martinium> another lang I have been using called nim had a similar install from source story for each new release
<martinium> they created a tool called choosenim that is basically just like Rust languages tool called rustup
<martinium> that would be a good and fast way for new users and existing users to install and use the language
<andrewrk> yes suggestions are welcome
<martinium> I am not a experienced programmer otherwise I'd built it myself
<martinium> build*
<andrewrk> I feel like choosezig/choosenim would be more complicated than "download and extract this thing"
<andrewrk> because if you have choozezig, then the user still has to download and run choosezig
<martinium> in usage once it is install you run the command whenever you want and you can choose to update to latest or master
<andrewrk> and that could have just been zig itself
<martinium> true one extra download but it manages the install
<andrewrk> but there is no install
<martinium> true
<andrewrk> in my opinion, /usr/bin/* belongs to package managers, not source installations or downloads
<martinium> I guess I am just used to using rustup
<martinium> usually /usr/local/bin is for external downloads
<martinium> external installations I mean
<andrewrk> that creates a problem when you want to uninstall something
<martinium> an alternative is that the tool downloads the latest master and sets up the symlink for the user into usr/local/bin
<martinium> saving time
<martinium> but its not that complicated
<andrewrk> I keep /usr/local empty and use ~/local/foo where `foo` is a specific project or set of libraries for said specific project
<andrewrk> there's no reason to use sudo or the root file system
<martinium> that is probably much better from a security standpoint
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<martinium> I have no issue downloading the tarballs and running that way
<martinium> most shouldn't either
<martinium> I have to remember that it isn't separate tools like cargo and rustc
<andrewrk> I put a lot of focus on removing dependencies of third party things
<andrewrk> that's why we can cross compile for any target on any target
<martinium> yeah definitely the way to go
<martinium> are compiled zig programs built statically by default?
<martinium> meaning they include everything needed to run the program?
<andrewrk> certainly if you don't link any libraries
<martinium> do you see this as a general purpose lang or mainly a systems lang?
<andrewrk> if you use --library foo, then it's going to look for shared libs. if you put --object libfoo.a on the command line then it links statically
<andrewrk> (I think I should rename that parameter)
<andrewrk> general purpose
<martinium> I've been trying to find a lang like this for a while.
<martinium> closest has been nim
<martinium> but that transpiles to C
<andrewrk> the main difference between zig and nim is that zig is trying to replace C rather than build on top of it
<andrewrk> and Zig has no runtime and especially no garbage collector
<martinium> while still working with all that C code which is going to be around forever
<andrewrk> well and a different approach to maintaining code simplicity, and a million little design decisions... I guess it's a lot different
<martinium> the one thing I have not seen are benchmarks like for benchmarks game
<martinium> the git repo I downloaded needs to refactor the code
<andrewrk> tiehuis is especially good at that stuff
<martinium> binary-trees.zig:54:56: error: expected type 'File', found '*File'
<martinium> var stdout_out_stream =;
<martinium> in your own tests is this lang as fast as C so far or faster?
<andrewrk> oh, remove the &
<andrewrk> I changed the API recently
<andrewrk> it's designed to be faster than C
<martinium> I will try refactoring tiehuis benchmarks
<andrewrk> for some stuff it's faster, for some stuff it's slower. but we're not doing everything that is planned yet. for example zig's memcpy implementation right now is trivial
<andrewrk> but obviously we would upgrade eventually
<andrewrk> there's no reason that any C code should be faster than equivalent zig code
<andrewrk> we're trying to beat C at its own game
<martinium> 44 years of knowledge hopefully get a successor finally
<andrewrk> simple example: unsigned ints in C guarantee overflow wraparound semantics. unsigned integers in Zig by default cause undefined behaivor on overflow
<martinium> much better from a security standpoint
<andrewrk> right because in debug mode you can have safety features
<andrewrk> or you can just release with the undef safety checks on
<martinium> @andrewrk, how old were you when you started programming?
<martinium> you've created some really impressive software
<andrewrk> 12. I started with VB 6
<andrewrk> my parents let me use the computer for 1 hour per day. then they made me go outside
<martinium> yeah its important to step away and develop other senses
<martinium> especially when young
<martinium> I work in IT and nowadays all the roles are asking for programming knowledge
<martinium> scripting is not enough anymore
<martinium> C while a small language feels so tedious since I was first exposed to python
<martinium> but python hides everything
<martinium> you don't "learn" how things really work
<scientes> I ended up in C cause I wanted to see how stuff morked
<martinium> boom
<martinium> thats where I am
<martinium> I am 32 now so my time is hardfought
<martinium> python's slowness isn't attractive
<scientes> I think it comes down to a zen of zig thing: writing perfect software
<scientes> the computers are so fast that slow software sometimes doesn't matter, but it *feels* wrong
<martinium> nothing is ever perfect though
<martinium> slow software is a waste of resources
<andrewrk> perfect software is possible
<martinium> especially when you have to spin up more resources to do something that you can do in another lang with 1/8th the resources
<martinium> the learning curve is that much different
<martinium> isn't*
<scientes> 1/8th is nothing, how about sqrt(n) resources
<scientes> that didn't come out wrong
<scientes> but yeah fundamentally doing things wrong
<martinium> only new languages that have been even close to performance with C are crystal and rust until my discovery of zig
<martinium> I blame MSFT and Apple for dumbing people down
<martinium> abstracting everything away from users
<martinium> when I was a kid people had to type batch scripts to get the programs on floppies to run
<martinium> lol
<martinium> @andrewrk, how often is the master documentation updated?
<andrewrk> martinium, you can find out with `git log --stat -- doc/`
<martinium> thx
<martinium> plan to invest 3+ hrs per day to learning this lang from ground up
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<andrewrk> cool. what will you be working on?
<martinium> will def be small things to learn the language. CLI utilities and the like but nothing concrete in my mind yet
<martinium> will have to write down as ideas come in my head
<martinium> @andrewrk, another questions is does this language take advantage of parallel calcs/multiple cores?
<andrewrk> there are std lib abstractions for spawning threads
<andrewrk> and also in the std lib: a work in progress M:N concurrency scheme with async/await built on multiplexing coroutines onto a kernel thread pool
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<andrewrk> there are some big issues I need to solve, but the proof of concept is working great
<andrewrk> for example, zig fmt uses it
<andrewrk> anyway I'm pretty sure that zig's answer to concurrency is going to be this async/await thing built on top of evented I/O
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<andrewrk> and you can play with it now
<scientes> andrewrk, this looks like what you are going for:
* scientes is struggling to write compiler_speak
<scientes> im trying to write a loop
<martinium> there is another language I found recently called pony lang that uses an actor model
<scientes> can't the destroy just set the promise ptr to null atomically?
<scientes> and have resume check for null?
<andrewrk> scientes, I believe that is status quo
<andrewrk> oh, you're talking about the promise ptr. no, you're introducing a new memory location that doesn't have a place to live
<scientes> i'm talking about the promise
<MajorLag> andrewrk, please tell me 1d8b8ad doesn't prevent comptime-known values from being used in an inner scope. that'd break a lot of my code at this point.
<scientes> which contains a pointers (and three other bits)
<andrewrk> <3
<andrewrk> scientes, let's call that the "atomic state"
<scientes> yeah thats what its called in the sources :)
<MajorLag> ok, cool.
<andrewrk> scientes, one of the bits in the atomic state is the "cancel bit". that is set by cancel. resume checks for that bit
<scientes> but the cancel bit can be set while the co-routine is running
<andrewrk> right
<andrewrk> the pointer that is in the atomic state, is the handle of the coroutine that calls await
<andrewrk> when you return, if it's null, then final suspend. if it's non-null, then destroy yourself and tail resume the awaiter
<scientes> then how does resume find the co-routine stack frame?
<scientes> i thought that was what was in there
<andrewrk> MajorLag, some of these bugs I'm fixing today are half a year old
<andrewrk> you have the patience of a saint
<andrewrk> scientes, resume is a function call
<andrewrk> the operand to resume is the handle of the coroutine (currently called the "promise")
<MajorLag> heh, if you knew me at work you'd know better.
<andrewrk> the handle has a pointer to the coroutine stack frame, which has a function pointer array and index and it does a fn call into the coroutine
<andrewrk> llvm splits coroutines into functions at each suspend point
<andrewrk> whew. 1 more issue to hit my quota for today
<andrewrk> I think I already found all the easy bugs
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<scientes> then why doesn't destroy null out that pointer, and have resume check for null, then we won't have that race condition described in #1363
<andrewrk> that pointer lives in the memory of the coroutine frame
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<andrewrk> which destroy destroys
<andrewrk> so you can't check the atomic state after it's been destroyed
<scientes> but there has to be a pointer to that pointer that resume can check
<scientes> the pointer that is getting SIGSEGVed
<andrewrk> in order for that to be true there would need to be new memory location that doesn't have a place to live
<andrewrk> a pointer to a pointer, where does the inner pointer live then?
<scientes> we arn't following each other
<scientes> all i'm saying is that that dereference that is leading to the SIGSEGV in the race consition can be checked for null
<andrewrk> the race condition I'm thinking about, is trying to dereference non-null
<scientes> oh destroy has no idea where that pointer, i c
<scientes> *where that pointer is
<scientes> i just don't like the memory leak when the co-routine is never resumed
<andrewrk> I don't think my proposal has a memory leak
<andrewrk> the rule is: when you async, it should be matched with exactly one of either: await, or cancelasync
<scientes> how are you assuring that resume is called?
<andrewrk> when you suspend, it should be matched with exactly one of either: resume, or cancelsuspend
<andrewrk> the memory is destroyed when both references are gone
<andrewrk> if you put your handle in an epoll set, and then decide to remove it from the epoll set, then you call cancelsuspend
<andrewrk> try to come up with a scenario where there is a memory leak and we can go through it together
<scientes> ok
<andrewrk> so far zig is on schedule for 0.3.0:
<andrewrk> not so sure about llvm though. I was expecting rc3 today
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<dbandstra> andrewrk, i found one of my issues was a duplicate and closed it. maybe that brings you to your daily quota? :p
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<andrewrk> dbandstra, thanks :)
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<martinium> @andrewrk, did you study CS in Uni?
<andrewrk> yes
<martinium> do you have any textbook recommendations for someone like myself that really wants to learn how to properly program?\Should I read a data structures and algorithms books first or something else?
<martinium> I am to the point where I understand the basics in any language I look at
<martinium> understand OOP etc but haven't really practiced it much
<martinium> zig is imperative mostly just like C correct?
<andrewrk> martinium, I suggest choosing a challenging project to work on
<martinium> ironically, thats how I started really learning python was when I created titter bots using libs
<martinium> I felt more like I was just using someone elses hard work though
<martinium> since libs provided all of those prebuilt functions
<martinium> I want to get to a point where I can build my own libs in stuff and maybe even port good ones over to zig
<andrewrk> you could start with game programming. game programming teaches you a lot
<martinium> I had downloaded a book forgot the exact name but it was game programming using C++11
<martinium> learned a bit of C++ thanks to that book
<dbandstra> game programming is great for when you're terrible at coming up with useful/productive project ideas
<dbandstra> don't necessarily need to worry about design etc if you just make a dude that shoots and passes levels
<martinium> I would like to use zig for working with a raspberry pi
<martinium> no runtime and no overhead compared to python
<scientes> martinium, I'm working on the arm64 port
<scientes> it mostly works
<martinium> nice
<andrewrk> this is outdated, but here's a kernel for rpi 3
<andrewrk> scientes, is this ready for review? did you have a CI server working?
<martinium> do any of you guys mind mentoring me with my programming journey? I have until this point never known anyone who codes so everything is self-study and reading on my own
<andrewrk> martinium, you're welcome to ask questions about computer science and stuff in this channel
<andrewrk> I'm not personally going to commit to answering everything but I think IRC can be a good way to get "crowd mentored"
<dbandstra> it's how i learned :p
<martinium> thanks along the way I'll get to learn the nuts and bolts of zig
<martinium> especially as the api's change
<martinium> hopefully I will be able to help out sooner than later
<andrewrk> martinium, what are you waiting for? :)
<andrewrk> write hello world
<martinium> I work in cybersecurity so being able to debug and understand code super helpful
<andrewrk> then decide what your next milestone will be
<martinium> this is me
<martinium> had done some playing with temp conversion CLI app in nim and C++
<martinium> at same time as I was learning git
<martinium> been a while so have to get back into the groove and practice everynight
<martinium> never put the python twitter bots on there
<andrewrk> martinium, I have a coding stream every thursday at 17:00 EST, and a few videos uploaded if you're interested
<andrewrk> IMO I'm pretty boring, haven't figured out how to make my stream good yet. but it's there if you're into that kind of thing
<martinium> I've never watched a live coding stream. I'll check it out.
<martinium> Does the streaming help you focus?
<andrewrk> no, not at all. it's purely done because it was requested of me
<martinium> using xfce I see
<martinium> I am a fan
<martinium> used that DE with arch for a while
<martinium> now I mostly just use fedora and gnome 3 grew on me
<martinium> @andrewrk, I noticed instead of using import statements to bring in the stdlib/modules you do it similar to JS by creating a const identifier
<martinium> any specific reason for this choice?
<andrewrk> it helps both the compiler and the human reading code more quickly understand where declarations are coming from
<martinium> gotcha
<martinium> what does the @ before the import keyword do?
<martinium> ah thanks
<martinium> hadn't gotten to that point in docs yet
<martinium> inthe hello world example you state "Usually you don't want to write to stdout. You want to write to stderr."
<martinium> why is this the case?
<martinium> every other hello world I've encountered displays to stdout
<martinium> gaining wisdom starting from hello world
<martinium> :)
<andrewrk> imagine that your program is `grep` and so it is supposed to write matching lines from stdin to stdout
<andrewrk> you're starting your grep project. you start with hello world
<andrewrk> "hello world" is not really the output that your program is generating
<andrewrk> it's more like a debug statement, you want to see if the control flow got to that point
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<martinium> ah I see
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<dbandstra> andrewrk, is there any reason why this function isn't working at comptime?
<dbandstra> if i call and put the result in a comptime const, i get the error 'cannot store runtime value in compile time variable'
<dbandstra> yet if i copy paste the function contents into where i'm using it, it works
<dbandstra> i tried making the function return `var` instead of `usize`, but that just crashed the compiler
<andrewrk> yeah infered return value isn't supported yet
<andrewrk> I thought I fixed the crash though, oops
<dbandstra> i can make a test case for that
<andrewrk> dbandstra, this test passes for me:
<andrewrk> also if I make it a comptime call it works
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<andrewrk> dbandstra, put the comptime in front of the fn call instead of the variable
<MajorLag> dbandstra: capacity isn't a field, it's a def.
<andrewrk> const capacity = comptime getCapacity(...
<dbandstra> oh wow, didn't know about that syntax
<andrewrk> oh, it's really powerful. it actually accepts any expression, including a block
<dbandstra> MajorLag, this is all a roundabout way of being able to use ComponentList without explicitly passing the second generic param every time
<dbandstra> MajorLag, using comptime black magic to recover the value of that param
<MajorLag> yeah, I see now you're getting it via the Type
<andrewrk> why not put the entire thing inside a scope that has the generic param you want?
<dbandstra> getCapacity will be used by a couple of ubiquitous methods that are called all over the place
<dbandstra> i will move it into the same scope as those methods
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<andrewrk> I think scope is the natural way to represent this concept; it would have to be a very good reason to represent it a different way
<dbandstra> iter() method is used in like 20 different files
<dbandstra> i tried moving iter method into the ComponentList generic struct, but didn't like how that felt (`gbe.components.Player.iter()` instead of `gbe.iter(C.Player)`)), and i had to use comptime black magic in other places
<andrewrk> hmm. I'd like to have another look at this later. I'm too tired right now
<dbandstra> fair enough
<dbandstra> don't expect something expertly designed, i'm half asleep most of the time i work on it
<dbandstra> but i was happy today to get rid of the last bad place of code duplication in terms of component types
<martinium> @andrewrk, you should register this channel officially so you can get a chanserv in here
<dbandstra> i thought i would need reify but this seems to work
<dbandstra> i'm pretty happy that i managed, in a c-esque language, to get the level of boilerplate down to almost how small it would be in something like javascript
<dbandstra> boilerplate of things like registering new component types
<andrewrk> that's great, I'm happy about that too
<andrewrk> I don't think you have to give up low level speed and power to gain high level abstractions
<dbandstra> i got pretty far doing this in C using evil macros and '.inc' files, but not this far
<andrewrk> I'm going to bed. night
<dbandstra> good night
<dbandstra> (sad postscript: my c project eventually devolved into me playing with scripting languages and DSLs. i don't feel any need for that with zig)
<martinium> well that sounds promising
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<martinium> @dbandstra, is there an API documentation yet?
<dbandstra> API for what?
<martinium> I am looking at the included lib folder to see the different modules in std lib
<dbandstra> zig's std lib? there are no docs sadly
<martinium> ex: json, crypto etc
<martinium> yeah
<dbandstra> if you spend time looking through those files you can see they're somewhat haphazard and inconsistent
<martinium> for instance if I wanted to import json
<dbandstra> i believe there's going to be a big effort in the future to clean everything up and then document it
<martinium> const json = @import("std").json
<martinium> would that be correct?
<martinium> I will try and help document this stuff also
<dbandstra> yeah
<dbandstra> @import("std") gives you zig/std/index.zig
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<dbandstra> everything should be pretty easy to follow from there
<martinium> yeah
<martinium> I wanted to make sure I did not need to include the index.zig in actual import
<martinium> in hello world example I see them access std lib then uses dot notation to access the module
<martinium> then another dot for warn function
<martinium> guess that specificity will keep memory size down if we only import exactly what is needed
<dbandstra> i don't believe you should worry about that, i think if you import something but don't use it, the compiler will leave it out
<martinium> that would be ideal
<dbandstra> whether you do `const warn = @import("std").debug.warn; warn(...)` or `const std = @import("std"); std.debug.warn(...)` is just up to your personal preference basically
<dbandstra> doing things the former way can lead to files with 20-30 imports at the top
<dbandstra> which is just ugly to look at
<martinium> yeah don't want this to be like haskell
<martinium> with a million lang extensions
<martinium> lol
<martinium> yeah the API documentation for all the modules is badly needed
<dbandstra> i'm still having trouble figuring out what convention to use for imports
<martinium> I'll ask andrew how he plans to put this on his site
<martinium> that should be done sooner rather than later I think
<dbandstra> i think the plan is to autogenerate docs in some way
<martinium> would save time yeah
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<kristate> arrived at tokyo uni 14:07 JST
<martinium> nice
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<dbandstra> i added a very brief guide to my entity component system in the oxid readme
<dbandstra> i think as of today the oxid gamecode is very readable (using that guide as reference... and staying away from the other files)
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<redj> does anyone know why github doesn't recognize zig yet?
<kristate> redj: they are considering it here:
<kristate> redj: long story short, please write more code in zig and post it on github :-)
<redj> kristate: thanks, I guess maybe eC got into linguist before this process was established :P
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<unique_id> const last_day = Year_Month_Day.init(2018, Sep, Last); -- Designing a date API is fun :) It has to be full of features, readable, and performant by having both a serial based type and a field based type.
<unique_id> I have no clue how this will end up, just trying things out for now
<unique_id> last_day.month += 1; if (last_day.is_valid())
<unique_id> ok yeah it's not camel case, I'll have to change that if that's what we're going for :)
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<andrewrk> .
<andrewrk> oops, sorry my cat is being bad
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<unique_id> Year_Month_Day.init_last_day(2018, Sep); Year_Month_Day.init_weekday(2018, Sep, Fri, Last);
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<unique_id> Leap seconds are pissing me off. Not leap seconds themselves, but how people are handling them.
<unique_id> So I must say, I'm in agreement with America, much of Europe, and China, to remove them. Good riddance xD
<unique_id> we'll see what happens in 2023 when a decision is likely to be taken
<andrewrk> just put `if (year >= 2023) @panic("¯\_(ツ)_/¯");`
<andrewrk> I'm sure it will be fine
<andrewrk> ;)
<unique_id> oh they wouldn't remove previous leap seconds though, but they would stop adding more of them. Mb for being so unclear as always.
<unique_id> humans decide when to add a leap second at least 6 months in advance with no algorithms involved, it's entirely database driven, so at least nothing bad would happen if they would decide to stop adding more
<MajorLag> is anyone aware of an open issue for incorrect printing of integer types > 64b?
<andrewrk> I'm not aware of that
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<MajorLag> I don't think it is a printing bug, but a problem with bitwise negation
<andrewrk> oh, i'm planning on fixing that soon
<andrewrk> probably today
<MajorLag> ok, if it is known I'll refrain from making an issue, though I think I found a different issue while investigating.
<MajorLag> nevermind, I am mistaken. I was running the wrong test.
<MajorLag> the bitwise negation is legit though
<MajorLag> *problem
<MajorLag> Don't mind me, I'm just having trouble getting my brain fully booted today.
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<kristate> andrewrk: are you livestreaming today?
<andrewrk> kristate, yes, in 30 minutes
<kristate> cool, I can join
<andrewrk> it will be here:
<kristate> ok -- looking forward!
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<MajorLag> andrewrk: yeah, that looks like it.
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<wink_> andrewrk: do you save in github or somewhere else the "files" you create in the livestream?
<andrewrk> no, which one do you want?
<wink_> using a user defined enum and printing the @TagName and @TagType, IIRC
<andrewrk> wink_,
<wink_> txs!
<wink_> Oh, another memory question, do you plan on supporting "packed" arrays of u1's or other small bit types?
<unique_id> I just played dbandstra's game. It's a lot of fun! I got to level ~12 with the Dreadnought (not on my first try), only to accidentally pause and I reacted by hitting escape which exited. The game has a lot of variety, I like it.
<andrewrk> wink_, that already works
<wink_> How, "bits: [2]u1;" looks like it was one bit per byte? Did I do something wrong?
<andrewrk> wink_, my mistake, I thought you said packed structs
<wink_> yea, I've seen structs do the "right" thing, but wanted to use an array.
<andrewrk> I can't find the issue for this
<wink_> Is the plan to support it by 1.0?
<andrewrk> yes, or at least make the compile error helpful enough to guide you towards the right solution
<wink_> ok
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<martinium> @andrewrk, am a little confused with the for loop syntax in this lang
<martinium> in C it is for ( variable initialization; condition; variable update ) {
<martinium> }
<martinium> Code to execute while the condition is true
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<tyler569> the closest eqivalent in zig is " while (condition) : (update) { code } "
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<unique_id> var i: usize = 0; while (i < length) : (i+=1) {}