00:01 <asheesh> Your situation is pretty odd. Any ychance you'd be willing to screenshare with me? I typically use Google Hangouts for that; I can call you on that if you're up for it.

00:02 <asheesh> Is this a fresh vagrant-spk VM, out of curiosity?

00:02 <asheesh> And you have the .sandstorm/ directory now?

00:03 <davidjgraph> sure, david@jgraph.com

00:03 <davidjgraph> acutally, davidjgraph@gmail.com

00:04 <davidjgraph> yes, fresh vm

00:04 <davidjgraph> .sandstorm is there

00:10 <davidjgraph> https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm-rawapi-example/blob/master/Makefile

00:15 <asheesh> (davidjgraph and I are chatting now via hangouts, for those following along at home)

00:19 <asheesh> https://apps.sandstorm.io/?experimental=true

00:20 <asheesh> davidjgraph: You can play with the uploaded package that way.

00:29 <asheesh> davidjgraph: One useful link - https://docs.sandstorm.io/en/latest/vagrant-spk/customizing/#setupsh - for customizing what the VM does when it launches.

00:32 <davidjgraph> cool, thanks

00:35 <asheesh> My pleasure!

00:47 <ocdtrekkie> I am late to the party, but I am now "following along at home".

00:47 <asheesh> :)

00:47 <ocdtrekkie> Not that late, I guess, now that I look at the timestamp. :D

00:49 <asheesh> FWIW the "empty" directory in his sandstorm-pkgdef.capnp was causing troubles when he attempted to migrate to vagrant-spk.

00:52 <ocdtrekkie> Okay, everyone needs to know this exists now: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/jmgi/?srp=8

19:16 <isd> O.O I just reconnected to IRC Idler and pidgin froze for like 10 seconds as it replayed all the messages. This is what I get for not signing in yesterday at all?

19:18 <isd> Pidgin is really bad about the whole "backrounding non-ui work" thing; the OTR plugin generates rsa keys in the gtk event loop, so the first time you use it it freezes for like a minute...

19:32 <asheesh> Yeah, isd, I used to get hangs like that with Quassel, too.

19:33 <maurer> My solution has been to use weechat + weechat remotes

19:34 <maurer> (presence of both a browser and cell phone client kinda sold me on it)

19:40 <isd> It's still pretty workable. I'll have to dogfood it more; maybe at some point I'll want to rate-limit the playback rate or something.

20:18 <digitalcircuit> asheesh: Hopefully not too off-topic, if you're still using Quassel, do you still encounter freezing? (Recently there's been some discussion in Freenode/#quassel about performance and whatnot)

20:31 <Finder> Hello...anybody there?

21:11 <asheesh> I don't use Quassel lately, alas!

21:11 <asheesh> I sort of committed 1.5y ago "If it's not in Sandstorm I won't use it (self-hosted)".

21:12 <shachaf> Does Sandstorm support IRC clients yet?

21:17 <isd> shachaf: what do you mean?

21:18 <shachaf> asheesh told me done reason that they wouldn't work a while ago, I think.

21:20 <isd> shachaf: you may be interested in a (very WIP) app I'm working on: https://github.com/zenhack/irc-idler

21:21 <isd> There are still a few weirdnesses with IRC because it isn't specifically supported by sandstorm. As such, my app needs direct network access, and to grant that you have to be an admin on your sandstorm instance.

21:21 <isd> So e.g. it can't be used on Oasis

21:21 <isd> But I'm using it right now. It still has a few bugs I want to iron out before soliciting alpha testers

21:22 <digitalcircuit> asheesh: Ah, noted. If you happen to remember the issues in the future, feel free to let me know, but don't worry about it.

21:22 <digitalcircuit> And that's a good goal given your spot on the Sandstorm project :) For Quassel to work, Sandstorm likely needs the IRC bridge in order to not require direct network access, asides from bundling various things (Quassel Web + the core + wake lock + auto-config stuff).

21:22 <shachaf> Ah, good to know.

21:23 <isd> I'd like to see some work put towards not needing to have core support all protocols

21:25 <isd> Ideally, you'd be able to have more of a hierarchy of trust between apps; you have somebody who gets an ipNetwork, and they can provide TcpPort. If you e.g. don't want an app like mine to actually be able to put arbitrary bytes on the wire, you can make a capnp schema and make me talk to that, but it seems like there ought to be a way to be a bit more flexible.

21:26 <isd> You could probably do a lot of this just by letting other apps fulfil ipNetwork/ipInterface requests. Admins could create grains that are the root of this kind of trust, and share them with users, letting them act as a kind of "firewall"

21:27 <isd> This seems much more sustainable than having every protocol someone wants to use be baked into sandstorm core.

21:27 <isd> asheesh: what are your thoughts?

21:37 <dzho> interesting

21:45 <digitalcircuit> isd: Sounds good, though it might make maintaining security more difficult - if there's a bug in an app providing a non-core protocol, and someone tries to abuse that, how would Sandstorm mitigate the issue? What if the network provider app was closed-source (if that's considered allowed)? Is it up to admins to perform needed review of ipNetwork → capnp apps and stay on top?

21:45 <digitalcircuit> (I know far less of how Sandstorm actually works, of course; wait for a response from an actual team member :)

21:53 <isd> I mean, the alternative is anything the core team doesn't have the bandwidth to build interfaces for themselves defaults to needing full network access to do at all.

21:54 <isd> ...and they can still build "official" apps that do this for stuff they might otherwise have to put in core. But now those apps can't compromise sandstorm itself.

21:55 <isd> Whereas if you put it in core, now sandstorm proper has more attack surface.

21:57 <isd> Right now my app can make any tcp or udp connection it wants. All it actually needs is to send correctly formatted IRC messages to a pre-specified host/port.

21:58 <isd> ...and supporting TLS right now means I have to keep the root certs in my app up to date, because I can't just ask for a TLS connection from the platform.

23:40 <asheesh> Palo Alto weather is amazing today.

23:42 <mokomull> Yeah, think I'm gonna bike home through it in a bit.