apeiros_ changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.0.0-p0: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p392) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: you're not improving it either by not going
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: well, as improving my english skills is concerned, euruko is not the only opportunity ;)
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<owen1> anyone here use redis as queue and also connect to cluster of redis for redundency?
<owen1> the cluster feature is work in progress, and so does this ruby client i found https://github.com/antirez/redis-rb-cluster
<owen1> so i don't feel confident that redis is a good solution. i was thinking of rabbitMQ but it's as easy to manage/configure as redis.
<owen1> and most of the examples are java.
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<bnagy> owen1: I use beanstalkd as a queue
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<bnagy> there are good gems for AMQP though, I use rabbitmq for 'general' messaging ( pub sub etc )
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<bnagy> bunny is nice and simple, and hot-bunnies is pretty slick if you're on jruby, but it's a super-thin wrapper
<bnagy> I think sidekiq etc use redis under the hood, don't they?
<owen1> bnagy: how many rabbitMQ servers do u use? i think i want 2. so if rabbit1 is down , rabbit2 takes over until rabbit1 recovers.
<bnagy> I just use one, but I think rabbitmq clusters fine
<bnagy> I mean it should, enough telcos use it
<owen1> bnagy: how many consumers do u have and are they on a different hosts than the rabbit?
<bnagy> some number of hundreds, and yes
<owen1> wow
<bnagy> but like I said, beanstalkd is my main work queue
<bnagy> so large work items go onto that, rabbit is just smallish comms
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<owen1> are both publishers and consumers of rabbit are ruby? also, do the consumers send an ack back to the rabbit to tell it they're done? (so a job will not get lost)
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<bnagy> owen1: again, my 'jobs' are all on beanstalkd :)
<bnagy> but amqp supports acks for messages, yeah
<owen1> bnagy: u said u use rabbit for general messaging. can u give a concrete example please?
<bnagy> I do a lot of pub / sub stuff. Heartbeats, work results, status messages etc
<bnagy> but all 'noncritical'
<owen1> bnagy: interesting. so u have multiple clients that send their status to rabbit, and a central dashboard that reads that?
<owen1> also, why do u use both rabbit and beanstalkd? is there a feature that u like in beanstalkd or there is it just as a learning excercise?
<bnagy> beanstalkd is very fast and very simple and works well with large items
<bnagy> owen1: kind of, except no 'dashboard' but that would be trivial if I wrote any web code ever
<owen1> reading it
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<ryanf> wow
<ryanf> that guy left out a huge disadvantage of beanstalkd imo
<ryanf> which is that you don't have any visibility into the middle of the queues (or the buried list)
<ryanf> unless that's changed in the last year or two
<bnagy> yeah the bury stuff is a bit weird
<ryanf> it doesn't really matter if everything's humming along
<bnagy> I remember wanting to be able to actually find a buried item by, like, anything
<ryanf> but when stuff is either getting backlogged or breaking
<ryanf> it's infuriating that you can't see what's going on
<bnagy> but I ended up just not working that way
<ryanf> without doing something hacky like draining the entire queue and then reloading it
<owen1> bnagy: (:
<bnagy> so I just use flow control at the submitters
<ryanf> resque was a huge breath of fresh air for me w/r/t that
<ryanf> and sidekiq is even better since it has nice default retrying semantics too
<ryanf> the other bad thing that comes to mind about beanstalk (again, this might have changed)
<ryanf> is that if even one job is buried, it can't clean up its binlog
<ryanf> and then it will just fill up the whole hard drive and crash
<bnagy> haha really?
<ryanf> yes
<bnagy> that sounds more like a bug :)
<bnagy> I don't run persistent, nor do I bury jobs, so I never came across it
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<ryanf> it's definitely suboptimal. I wonder if they ever fixed it
<ryanf> that's good
<owen1> do u guys suggest that i'll send failed work-items to a failed queue or to a seperate DB? another DB might be nice since i can query the failures easily and persist them seperately.
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<bnagy> it completely depends on your workflow
<owen1> i need to show reports in a web interface based on failures - ie: message of type A, 1003 failures, yahoo API timeout
<owen1> it seems like based on the quries i'll have to run, external db is better.
<bnagy> imho just send a failure message to a queue or via however you do your comms and let a failure message consumer deal with it
<bnagy> and if it makes sense for it to go into a DB have the failure consumer do that
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<bnagy> then you don't have to refactor tons of crap if you decide to change your approach
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<owen1> bnagy: nice, so i'll have some logic, like - only if an item was retry 3 times it is deleted from the 'fail' queue.
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<r0bgleeson> owen1: why not something like sidekiq? it sounds like you're rebuilding some of what it already does
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<owen1> r0bgleeson: never heard about that
<owen1> let me google
<owen1> btw, my publisher is ruby and my consumers are node.js
<r0bgleeson> you'd need to write a node.js client then
<r0bgleeson> it uses redis as its message queue
<r0bgleeson> you only really ever pass arguments through redis (like some sort of ID or whatever)
<owen1> can it handle 300 messages/sec
<r0bgleeson> i dont know
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<r0bgleeson> what is the content of your messages?
<owen1> json, less than 1 k
<owen1> 10 keys with some strings
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<r0bgleeson> so if you went with Sidekiq, you would create a publisher as a Sidekiq work that would publish the message(JSON), and the consumer(JS) client could read from the redis queue. anyway, dont consider this too much, i havent looked into if it would be good enough
<owen1> ok
<r0bgleeson> it does have some nice features though, see here https://github.com/mperham/sidekiq
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<whitequark> is it webscale
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<r0bgleeson> whitequark: roflscale
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<whitequark> r0bgleeson: does it have sharding
<r0bgleeson> whitequark: not yet :)
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<whitequark> r0bgleeson: then it doesn't scale
<whitequark> mongodb will run circles around it
<whitequark> hmmm, also, what "it"?
<r0bgleeson> in case of sidekiq, redis
<whitequark> I mean it is glaringly obvious that mongodb will run circles around it anyway
<whitequark> but still
<r0bgleeson> hehe
* whitequark actually uses sidekiq in production. it's really good. simple and good architecture.
<whitequark> however in the case of owen1 sidekiq seems like an unnecessary layer to me.
<r0bgleeson> I like sidekiq
<r0bgleeson> yeah, it does have a great queue overview web UI though
<whitequark> it could be better.
<r0bgleeson> much better than the delayed job web UI >_>
<whitequark> delayed job has a web ui?..
* whitequark was comparing sidekiq to resque
<r0bgleeson> nah it doesn't, was a joke ;)
<whitequark> :D
<r0bgleeson> i guess it'd be super easy to do if you wanted to
<r0bgleeson> it's just a SQL table
<owen1> whitequark: at the moment, i lean toward rabbit.
<whitequark> owen1: no experience with rabbit, sorry.
<owen1> me too (:
<whitequark> though I did hear good things about AMQP in an env similar to yours
<whitequark> a dude I know even wrote a browser-based amqp client or smth like that
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<owen1> whitequark: it's suppose to be battle tested. using erlang and fast
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<whitequark> parser is down to 2 errors on both complete 1.8 and 1.9 stdlib
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<whitequark> well, one error plus I don't handle encodings properly yet.
<whitequark> yorickpeterse: chances that it will be complete by the end of your holidays
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<charliesome> whitequark: nice post
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<brownies> any word on when JRuby will get Ruby 2.0 ?
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<charliesome> brownies: it's mostly there
<charliesome> just missing a couple of things afaik
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<brownies> ah, ok
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<bnagy> ok I think my brilliant plan to 'just' wrap lldb with ffi via swig is a little more involved than I thought
<bnagy> which makes me so sad :`(
<bnagy> now I have to learn python
<charliesome> bnagy: blasphemy
<bnagy> I know! I swore this day would never come
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<dingus_khan> potentially stupid question: can you initialize a variable to the first element in an array that's being passed in as an argument?
<bnagy> something = ary.first?
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<dingus_khan> how did I miss that one... yeesh, thanks for answering though!
<yorickpeterse> whitequark: noice
<yorickpeterse> meanwhile I'm messing with Ragel and C
<yorickpeterse> Ragel and Ruby was easy
<yorickpeterse> but boy, the code it outputs is ugly as sin
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<mbj> whitequark: '"foo"' is lexed as a single tSTRING token with value "foo", getting source maps for delimiters is difficult, what about lexing it with tSTRING_BEG, tSTRING_CONTENTS and tSTRING_END ?
<mbj> whitequark: We already have a builder for that case
<mbj> whitequark: We could generate source ranges via tok[0].chr, tok[-1].chr from the actions in parser. But IMHO it is more clean to just remove the single token tSTRING, okay we also have ?a style strings, but these could be handled via a tSTRING_BEG_Q and tSTRING_CONTENTS ?
<mbj> whitequark: For now I'll not change the lexer and parser actions and handle this in the builder, but in the longerm I think the remove of the tSTRING token would remove some actions.
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<rob_> hi, is there any way to make irb not silently fail on broken .irbrc?
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<Mon_Ouie> You could wrap your whole irbrc in a begin/rescue/end block and make it output information about the error instead
<Mon_Ouie> (Possibly it would be
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<Mon_Ouie> (Possibly it would be better to just load "real_irbrc.rb" from the file that contains the rescue, in case of SyntaxErrors)
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<mbj> 19>> ?c
<eval-in> mbj => "c" (http://eval.in/16334)
<mbj> 18>> ?c
<eval-in> mbj => 99 (http://eval.in/16335)
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<mbj> 19>> ?cc
<eval-in> mbj => /tmp/execpad-7873ce693e1c/source-7873ce693e1c:2: syntax error, unexpected '?' ... (http://eval.in/16336)
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<zzak> injekt: :D
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<andersbr> I'm generating some ruby code, and I want to be able to write out a string to a file in such a way that, when the file is eval'ed or required, the string is recreated. It seems to be way more difficult than I'd expected.
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<rue> A quine?
<shachaf> andersbr: It's a fun exercise!
<shachaf> There's a trick to it which has many other applications.
<andersbr> Does it involve eval?
<shachaf> No, no eval.
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<shachaf> Well, you can do it without eval.
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<dr_bob> String#inspect should do the job.
<andersbr> shachaf: Is that what you had in mind?
<manveru> today matz has birthday :)
<shachaf> There are lots of ways to make it easier.
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<dr_bob> shachaf, birthday? ;-)
<kalleth> trying to do a gem install middleman but nothing happens... when I run gem install --debug middleman i get lots of OpenSSL::SSL::SSLError - read would block messages
<kalleth> its a new environment so its possible i missed a package
<kalleth> installed openssl though
<dr_bob> So, beruhgige mich jetzt mit http://chrome.atari.com/missilecommand/
<dr_bob> Sorry
<dr_bob> wrong channel :-)
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<rue> Ehmg, it’s dr_bob
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<banisterfiend> .
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<whitequark> mbj: no I don't think that is a good idea
<whitequark> first, tSTRING is used for most simple strings. it is an important optimization, and in the future the lexer will take advantage of it more
<whitequark> e.g. right now, it shines at everything non-text-literal--outperforming RP at least by 2x even while collecting the maps--and sucks hard at strings
<whitequark> being slower by 2x-4x
<mbj> whitequark: "foo" is lexed as a single tSTRING token, just like ?c on non 1.8, without a real sign of distinction between "" and ? strings it blows up the later stages.
<whitequark> hrm
<whitequark> I'm against adding much new tokens to the parse.y files. the deviations from mri should be as small as possible; that allows us to verify the behavior against mri easily
<mbj> I understand that reasoning
<mbj> The other option is to detect the "?" as leading character in the builder
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<whitequark> this is probably the right thing to do.
<whitequark> the strings should be unambiguous. you can have either ", ', ?, or % as the leading char
<mbj> and in case of ? you dont have a closing delimiter
<whitequark> yep
<whitequark> it's a bit of logic but not that much
<mbj> yeah
<whitequark> you can put it to a Source::Map descendant IMO, they will generally handle various source-related quirks in themselves
<mbj> whitequark: Within Source::Map we do not have access to the ruby version we parse (currently)
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<mbj> So ?c in 1.8 vs non 1.8 would not belong there.
<mbj> forget this
<mbj> We do not see ?c as a string literal in 1.8 mode ;)
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<mbj> s/literal/token/
<whitequark> mbj: yeah, ?c is an (int) mapped to the "?c" token.
<whitequark> there could be a method in the Source::Map::Integer to query this info.
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<mbj> whitequark: Lets see where this ends. Once we have the literal source maps the process will speed up
<mbj> whitequark: Still dont have much time, so I do not advertise anything ;)
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<whitequark> ok
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<judofyr> heya
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<whitequark> judofyr: hi
<judofyr> hi whitequark
<judofyr> whitequark: what's up?
<whitequark> judofyr: pawser
<judofyr> whitequark: pawsome
<whitequark> judofyr: seen my article?
<judofyr> whitequark: yeah
<whitequark> my everything hurts.
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<whitequark> >> a if b:c
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-a6a004e1e229/source-a6a004e1e229:2: syntax error, unexpected tLABEL ... (http://eval.in/16359)
<whitequark> >> if b:c; end
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-7510530c9a5e/source-7510530c9a5e:2:in `<main>': undefined method `b' for main:Object (NoMethodError) (http://eval.in/16360)
<whitequark> 19>> if b:c; end
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-f7398493e39c/source-f7398493e39c:2:in `<main>': undefined method `b' for main:Object (NoMethodError) (http://eval.in/16361)
<whitequark> >> if false; elsif b:c; end
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-2fcfac2988d6/source-2fcfac2988d6:2:in `<main>': undefined method `b' for main:Object (NoMethodError) (http://eval.in/16362)
<whitequark> 19>> if false; elsif b:c; end
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-6be634567678/source-6be634567678:2:in `<main>': undefined method `b' for main:Object (NoMethodError) (http://eval.in/16363)
<whitequark> why
<judofyr> >> a while b:c
<eval-in> judofyr => /tmp/execpad-c84fabbe6e0e/source-c84fabbe6e0e:2: syntax error, unexpected tLABEL ... (http://eval.in/16364)
<judofyr> postfix is magic
<judofyr> whitequark: btw, I'm using ast.rb in a template engine now :)
<whitequark> judofyr: cool :)
<whitequark> link?
<judofyr> whitequark: I have a slight problem now though: there's places where I want to trim newlines, but I want the AST to still contain the correct line-numbers
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<judofyr> whitequark: at the moment I just swallow the newlines in the lexer: https://github.com/judofyr/mockle.rb/blob/52b687f00976060eb6e1fcd973200146f790f4b0/lib/mockle/lexer.rb#L67
<whitequark> yeah yeah
<whitequark> if you'd write it in ragel that would be trivial :)
<judofyr> well, I'm mostly wondering how the communication with the parser/AST would be
<whitequark> ummm
<whitequark> don't think about lexing/parsing in terms of "communication"
<whitequark> they're not friends talking to each other, they're mortal enemies trying to achieve a armistice
<whitequark> well I overdid that metaphor maybe
<judofyr> :D
<whitequark> but: lexer produces a token stream, parser consumes it
<whitequark> the parser does not, ever, ask the lexer "what is the current lineno"
<judofyr> whitequark: let me phrase it another way: the generated Ruby-code has to line up with the template source. how would you store that line information the AST?
<whitequark> or otherwise you'll get the ruby_parser's "line numbers are slightly off, parsing LR sucks" (no, you do.)
<whitequark> judofyr: :3
<judofyr> I don't really care about "this is lineno x", I care about "I need to insert a newline in the generated Ruby here"
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<judofyr> I've had explicit s(:newline)-nodes earlier
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<whitequark> well
<whitequark> look how parser does it :D
<whitequark> add an attr_reader :line to your AST::Node subclass
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<whitequark> add a field to all your tokens with the line number for token
<whitequark> and yes, that means that you need to split the tokens on newlines and be able to concatenate them back in parser
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<whitequark> that's trivial to do in the grammar, slightly less trivial to represent in the AST
<judofyr> that would make the code generator more complex though
<whitequark> yep
<judofyr> as I would have to keep track of the previous and current Node, and insert \n as needed
<judofyr> and sometime I would also want to combine and split nodes
<whitequark> splitting is simple
<whitequark> combining, not so
<whitequark> easiest way is to do 1:n src:ruby correspondence
<judofyr> e.g `Hello <%= world %>!` can be combined to s(:dynamic, 'Hello #{world}!')
<whitequark> well. don't do that :)
<judofyr> whitequark: it's a neat optimization
<whitequark> it's not an abstract syntax tree anymore in this case, for example
<whitequark> it's a *premature* optimization
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<judofyr> that is true
<whitequark> and it's not neat, it breaks things for you
* whitequark needs to fix the last parser bug which prevents it from handling 1.8 & 1.9 stdlibs
<judofyr> I agree that it's not really an AST anymore, but I don't think it's premature optimization
<whitequark> judofyr: do you have benchmarks?
<whitequark> if not, it is
<whitequark> besides
<whitequark> parsing in a templating engine is a one-time task
<whitequark> if you are not writing php, that is
<whitequark> so it doesn't even matter as long as it only spans seconds and not minutes
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<judofyr> whitequark: oh, I mean this as an optimization step for improving the generated code. e.g. `_buf << "Hello #{world}!"` over `_buf << 'Hello '; _buf << world; _buf << '!'`
<whitequark> ah...
<whitequark> it's even simpler then, make this optimization in your backend / code generator
<whitequark> eg translate every (dynamic) node to _buf << "single interpolated string"
<judofyr> sure, but it's also neat to have the optimizer separate because you can have different backends
<judofyr> e.g. buffering into an array and then joining vs buffering into a string
<whitequark> AST is a really wrong and inconvenient place for doing any optimizations or transformations. I dunno why is this idea so persistent
<whitequark> judofyr: no
<whitequark> optimizer is intrinsically coupled to the backend
<whitequark> besides, it doesn't make sense to have distinct backends for just ruby because it's just overengineering and/or masturbation
<whitequark> pick the fastest one and go with it
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<whitequark> the problem domain is too simple to require this form of variability
<judofyr> whitequark: having custom backends is useful if you e.g. want to support streaming. you could have a backend that just pushes to a buffer
<whitequark> judofyr: class StreamBuffer; def <<(str); @socket.send str; end; end
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<whitequark> class ArrayBuffer; def <<(str); @array << str; end; def get; @array.join; end; end
<whitequark> etc
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<judofyr> whitequark: I do think I actually agree with you :)
<judofyr> whitequark: but still, when you're just going to produce Ruby in the end, an AST is a surprisingly nice format to work with
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<whitequark> the first thing you understand when you begin with compilers... they're already complicated enough. you do not need MORE code there.
<judofyr> what would be a "better" solution?
<whitequark> *to work with
<whitequark> hm
<whitequark> it depends on the problem domain :)
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<whitequark> so far, I do not see what would a backend-independent optimization step constitute
<judofyr> that I can agree
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<judofyr> but I still find s(:newline)-nodes and AST a surprisingly nice way to work with things
<whitequark> well, it doesn't exactly work for you, does it? :)
<whitequark> (if yes, why would you ask? :))
<judofyr> it's been working fine enough when I've been writing custom lexer/parsers
<judofyr> (hey, it works surprisingly fine for template languages)
<judofyr> but when you have the whole "lexer produces tokens", "parser consumes them", it isn't as easy to just say `res << s(:newline)`
<judofyr> I could incorporate it in the grammar, but it feels a bit dirty
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<yxhuvud> whitequark: isn't the whole concept of transforming something to an AST more or less *by itself* a backend independent optimization step?
<whitequark> yxhuvud: wat?
<yxhuvud> (it is quite possible to parse without them, though quite horrible)
<whitequark> optimization is something that makes your target program faster
<whitequark> (or makes it consume less space, etc)
<judofyr> yxhuvud: AST construction is not really about performance; it's about making it easier to work with
<yxhuvud> judofyr: yes, which is also an optimization.
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<whitequark> yxhuvud: no, it isn't.
<judofyr> yxhuvud: not the type of optimization we were talking about
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<whitequark> first, do not confuse optimizing compilers, which transform the programs being compiled, with optimization of the compiler itself
<whitequark> second, conceptual simplification of something is not an optimization, by any means
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<judofyr> whitequark: I guess if I'm going down the lexer/parser/AST road I might as well tag line numbers to nodes
<whitequark> judofyr: well, yes? this is how it is generally done
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<judofyr> whitequark: I've noticed
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<judofyr> whitequark: you ever dabbled in HTML/JS? I'm actually quite proud of the number of ugly hacks that works great together in Mockle. e.g. look at the source code of http://stuff.judofyr.net/mockle-example/ and compare it to the DOM nodes in the Inspector
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<whitequark> neat
<judofyr> I'm using <noframes> :D
<whitequark> also cool error reporting
<judofyr> yeah, I'm trying to make it as designer-friendly as possible
<whitequark> I wish our internal editor was as good >_<
<whitequark> I have developed a templating language, you see
<judofyr> ooo
<whitequark> for rails
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<whitequark> it's like liquid but it was actually *designed* as opposed to banging regexps together
<whitequark> also several hundred or thousand times or so faster
<judofyr> oh, Liquid is so terrible
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<judofyr> (implementation-wise)
<judofyr> I think I have 2-3 re-implementations
<whitequark> yeah. my one is compiled to ruby and also supports precise error reporting
<whitequark> just like parser :3
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<whitequark> both compile-time & run-time
<judofyr> I think I called mine Solid :)
<judofyr> Sat Feb 20 17:53:00 2010 +0100
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<whitequark> but the guy who should've integrated all of this with an editor on our website (it's a cms for musicians, http://amplifr.com), well, didn't do that
<whitequark> and now it totally sucks :/
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<whitequark> there's also an internal reporting app for liquor errors these days. I think
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<judofyr> whitequark: mockle.rb will have crappy compile-time error reporting because you should just be able to open it in the browser and see it there
<judofyr> so much nicer to show errors in a browser than in a terminal
<judofyr> coloring, positioning, etc
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<whitequark> dunno
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* whitequark has all that in the terminal
<whitequark> it's about ten loc
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<judofyr> whitequark: as in, more user-friendly. you can show the whole source, jump to the line. do proper syntax highlighting. anyway.
<judofyr> night!
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