<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: we also have the issue that our component and footprint libraries are not very complete yet. so this is an additional risk factor. again, it's all well and under control if you actually try things.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: and so on. if you're doing a design with components that you're not already very familiar with, you have no chance if you don't make prototypes and check them.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: also, sometimes all you can understand from the data sheet is that you have to be careful about certain things, but you need to combine this with hands-on experience to be sure just how careful, and what happens if you aren't (e.g., because doing what they suggests would conflict with other design goals)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: i think you underestimate just how unpredictable making hardware can be. e.g., it's extremely easy to misunderstand how a chip works, and fixing the misunderstanding can be difficult. then, a chip's documentation may claim this or that, but the chip behaves differently.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (open loop design) that was in reference to your question about the cost of doing purely the "design" (without making any hardware) for a potential ya
<rjeffries>
wpwrak maybe you can pitch Ben Nanonote as a VGA tester?
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: read it after your work break if you like. this is a hardware project. you are very good at criticizing others and that is appreciated and valued. and I know you are serious.
<rjeffries>
I have work to do. ;)
<rjeffries>
you can drop the condescending attitude
<rjeffries>
you are  asmart guy. I respect that. You offer some very sage opinions, but also get out in the weeds
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: yes indeed. very different. unfortunately in the computer industry many companies work with announcements, in different ways.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul you have a style that is different than mine
<rjeffries>
let's agree we do not think the same and leave it at that. ;)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: I won't ask whether you bought and tried a Notion Ink yet...
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: so you have not
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul people I trust have
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul the technology works and works well, it has not been commercialized sucessful. ok
<rjeffries>
it has not found its market. I do not know why. maybe you do. the gal behind it is a very smart puppy an dthe technolgy is good
<rjeffries>
i am so totally lost
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: hahah ;)
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul you are cracking me up
<rjeffries>
akiwiguy google qi pixel display  thay have solved those problems in an elegant fashion
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: I meant the "interesting qi-pixel display"
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul? well, I paid $149 with my carrier. the little company who made my device is called Motorola. You may have heard of them.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: maybe that is because their strategy is to come out with outlandish announcements and vaporware to attract (more) investors?
<rjeffries>
akiwiguy with e.g. eink monochrome display one gets two weeks on one battery charge for a book reader e,g, Kindle
<rjeffries>
I carry a decentt little smartphone (not iPhone) with a 4-in. display. it has a nice slide out keyboard, nice screen. it works.
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: well, i worth that my battery will long last
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul for wahtever reasons, that interesting qi-pixek display seems to still not be designed in to anything significant. I do not know why.
<rjeffries>
you will get to find out if an FPGA based realtively expensive linux platform finds enough customers
<rjeffries>
anyway, enough of this.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul should one assume all of your opinions are facts? ;)
<rjeffries>
and you know I am not complaining. I am pointing to facts.
<rjeffries>
that is notr the relevant question wolfspraul, and you know that. MM1 is running a very constraind set of apps. with linux you run all sorts of weird stuff, some of it with well hidden bugs
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: buy it , use it, crash it and complaing with us later :-)
<kristianpaul>
is getting good shape rjeffries , you can run uclinuc, you can have a toolchain easilly, not bad
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul for teh true belivers yes. but the lack of MMU will lead to any number of randowm crashes. this is not rocket science
<rjeffries>
until someone adds MMU MM is not a viable Linux platform. period. nevermind that lekernel is not interetsed
<rjeffries>
screw it code it in VB and take the money and then do what you like
<rjeffries>
actaully it is reasonably powerful. no my cuppa, but nothing to sneer about
<rjeffries>
no biggie
<rjeffries>
visual nbasic is just another language
<rjeffries>
one never knows, does one
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: but you seems good with social skill, you can catch a developer in the wild :)
<kristianpaul>
rjeffries: (USB) it could, just we need a proper OHCI implementation, any volunteering around it? :-)
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul you know damnd well I am not a coder.
<rjeffries>
you know very well that ther emust be a delta between what it costs you to build and what people pay you
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul I sometimes wonder what you are thinking. by the way you said market you meant margin
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: you and your market :-) I do enjoy it with coffee though :-)
<rjeffries>
akiwiguy be careful. not sure I see "heapsOf users who wnat an FPGA computer
<rjeffries>
ok. but if you can only hit $399 selling price with adequate margin to keep your children fed, the market is prolly still quite limited
<rjeffries>
but removing the items you mention does not rip out a lot of cost does it?
<rjeffries>
keyboard is $5 camera is maybe $25 p/w is another $5 max
<rjeffries>
before you do this you need to figure out who will make USB work as a general USB and IMO make the 8:10 port usable and acessible from the edge of the board
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul some of your cost are ports that only are interesting for vjay use case
<rjeffries>
depned on what price point you can hit
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: how do you measure that the 'acceptance of NanoNote is low'?
2011-08-06
<rjeffries>
biab
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I though he had moved on to ARM based boards
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: SIE has long dropped the FPGA. now it's just the 472x, RAM, uSD, and NAND. technically, they could get rid of the NAND as well.
<rjeffries>
I know not your fav engineer, but Carlos & friends did a quick hack to Nanonote to create the SAKC. I am sorry that stalled
<rjeffries>
alsthough the fpga aspecty was not my passion. I'd rather accomodate an AVR to get a lot of io capability. I know, you don't care for that idea either.,;)
<rjeffries>
i mean only design a new board, readyt to buy first 5 protos
<rjeffries>
in other words, new design all the way to board layout reday to go buy some PCBs
<rjeffries>
s/raday/ready
<rjeffries>
what would it take to do a fresh design using 4760 as SOC and going to a lot more memory, atc. if you wre the designers, how many man months of design?
<rjeffries>
procurement, manufacturing, testing all the non-design part.
<rjeffries>
what amount of engineering effort (ignore FOR THIS DISCUSSION) all teh associated and vital back end stuff
<rjeffries>
ok serious business here:
<rjeffries>
but I am drifting into the weeds, showing my lack of dedication to copyleft philosophy.
<rjeffries>
if a person desires a small mobile device with high useability and functionality (e.g. can connect to the internet when you ar at a hotspot) then indeed a non-copyleft Android or similar product works well
<rjeffries>
wpwrak after 18 months of shipping the acceptance og Ben Nanonote is very low. Too soon to say how MM will do, that is a whole differnt kettle of fish.
<rjeffries>
said with a smile, never fear
<rjeffries>
wpwrak too bad you dislike tablet form factor. a samll (7 inches would be my prefernce) copyleft tablet would be well accepted methinks. Case design isso much easier. oh wait, I forgot, BT is not allowed. so no Bluetooth keybards can be considered.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (wlan chip) ah, so you wanted me to review the technical specs for you, without actually intending this to be of any relevance for what we do. got me :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak do not fear I will not bother you again with that or other cvhips
<rjeffries>
s/care/case  ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: that wouldn't preclude spinning off an interim prototype into a separate product, though. but i don't think the case for doing all this is very strong if all we aim for is yet another devel board
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yes, a care is expensive in terms of work and investment. but then, there's also a difference between a nanonote and yet another devel board :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak ahile I understand you opinion re future nanonote case, we could get a nbew system done a lot faster if designing a case was a second effort.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak my low-power comment was about the wi-fi chip. as to consumer electronics case for a nanonote follow-on, should ther eevery be one, it adds a lot of expense. the current nanonote case is too restrictive IMO.
<rjeffries>
a next product that leverages everything learned by the Ben Nanonote experince could be interesting. I wonder what the required investmenbt would be, assuming one abandons need for consumer electronics stype case.
<rjeffries>
Ingenic SOCs are a pretty good price/features/performance "bargain"
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I did read your document and learned a lot. Thank you.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak wolfspraul has lost interest in Ingenic SOCs. My objective observation.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you have different interests than I do. I was interested in the low-power draw. I apologize for having mentioned it here. My mistake.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: btw, what did the examination of the data sheet of that wlan chip yield ?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak how much have you studied the ingenic 4670 data sheet etc? and do we know if it is in full production, designed into shipping products?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak the BUY section is fine. But that comes after the testing.making which could use an extra sentence or two. IMO
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: are you referring to the "buy" section ? or the one on testing/making atben/atusb ?
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul by the way, different topoiuc, as to ATben ATusb, I noticed that later in the document there is a good description. but at first mention as news item, descripotion assumes the reader knows what they are
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul what does that line of poetry mean to you? I am serious it has a nice ring, but doies not mean anything. ;)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: let's see what rejon thinks. I love it. Communicates a lot of meaning.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul rejon this phrase does not communicate meaning (to me) "slow fidelity on the freedom channel"
<rjeffries>
wpwrak the writeup in this newsletter assumes one knows what the ATben and ATusb do and what they are used for
<rjeffries>
mtion gola is eventual 6LoWpan protocol support, can be used in Internet of Things (IoT)
<rjeffries>
add a short descripition of what ATben and ATusb are. mention 802.15.4 radio
<rjeffries>
wpwrak wolfspraul the draft of qi-hardware news looks good. one suggestion for improvement
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: hmm, if wolfgang keeps buying fake component in shenzen, we may indeed find ourselves on par soon ;-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak it is clear you will soon be a VERY rich man, on the order of Bill Gates, or at a minimum Steve Jobs. certainly on par with wolfspraul. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you need RFID (and not just a swipe card) in case the person in question finds the door open and enters without a swipe.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (tenant annunciator) should actually be easy to implement in multi-apartment buildings: use an RFID card for front door access and sends a message via some internal network to the terminal(s) in the respective apartment.
<rjeffries>
au 29 in refernce to 4dsystem GPS microsd module
<rjeffries>
if it is real
<rjeffries>
au 29 seems not very expenive
<rjeffries>
wpwrak indeed especially if a mistress or lover is involved. yes, that could be a money maker for sure
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: there may actually be a market for a system that warns an intruder of the approaching tenant, with enough time to make a discreet, non-confrontational departure
<rjeffries>
roh that 4dsystems GPS module is clever
<rjeffries>
or given the 10 meter range of your modules I put a system on my minature horse. and place a few other 802.15.4 stations at various locations in or era his pasture an dbarn
<rjeffries>
then have a reak time more or less HORSE GPS
<rjeffries>
then as I walk back near the front gate, it gives another alert
<rjeffries>
maybe it knows when i leave, alerts my wife and dogs and any criminal who have a Ben
<rjeffries>
wpwrak i have to find a cool way to leverage 802.15.4 ob the walking stick
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you should be a defence attorney
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: well, phase 1.5. put the product on the market and invest in mass advertizing. then, when one of your walking-stick customers gets hit by an e-car, join a case with an amicus brief stating that the car driver did not take all reasonable precautions to avoid such accidents. that will let your customers sue for an even more insane amount. that precedent will greatly smoothen the lobbying process.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (walking stick) add some wireless receiver and sell the corresponding transmitter as a cheap car add-on. that way, your walking stick can flash when one of these silent e-cars sneaks up on you. phase 2: lobby to make this a mandatory safety features in all cars whose noise level is below a ferrari breaking the sound barrier ;-)
<rjeffries>
maybe it will shock me if I do not walk briskly. I'll have to see.
<rjeffries>
have you played with EL wiring for glow-y effects?
<rjeffries>
roh will I am not telling the truth. I hope to add a couple of sensors so it counts steps, yada yada.
<rjeffries>
roh it doesn't NEED a cpu inherently. But that makes it easy to do some cool effects.
<roh>
rjeffries: what does it need a cpu for?
<rjeffries>
also known as a dead simple LED controller that is small and very portable and very low cost
<rjeffries>
My walking stick doesn't need Linux. Yet.
<rjeffries>
I got a nice as in "low" quote to assemble my small qty of femtoduinos a.k.a. "walking stick human saftey system: or WSHSS lol
<rjeffries>
my interest for a project I can not talk about is battery with very long life at very low drain. think a year or more
<roh>
rjeffries: li based one-time batteries.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: says typically 15 khours on time, min. 20 khours storage lifetime
<rjeffries>
A guy who wporked for me installed Unix on a  PDP that we converted from DEC RSTS os. The tape came directly from UC Berkely
<rjeffries>
wpwrak is OLED really so short lived in terms of durability"
<rjeffries>
actually I was not. I went to university at one of the first 4 Arpanet nodes. those were eciting times.
<rjeffries>
irc was the fisrt social network. get over it. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: perhaps you are too young to remember BITNET ? ;-))
<rjeffries>
I am not an evangalist for social networking. I can report that i find a lot of smart creative sane people who I otherwise would never meet.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you and wolfsraul and rejon could all talk to each other. BUG smile
<rjeffries>
s/BUG/BIG/
<rjeffries>
[g2] I am trying to figure out how to get the URL to those two posts I made about LED Toy and the guy who invented it
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: hmm ? what made me famous ?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you are now famous on GooglePlus G+ I warned them that you do not use G+
<wpwrak>
rjeffries, kristianpaul: glad you like it :) still needs some engineering, though. e.g., firmware/content updates are currently via an RS-232 dongle. and the case it some fragile DIY contraption with a lot of glue and wire. (needless to say, changing the battery is a pain)
<rjeffries>
roh the only way doing Femtoduino by hand makes sense (I think) is for a hobbyist who has more time than money
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I'll be damned. re LEDtoy project. Too damn cool.
<roh>
rjeffries: yes.. thats why i think doing a hundred and using picknplace makes sense. manual labour is expensive (atleast here)
<rjeffries>
roh agree Femtoduino is not a good candidate for cnc milling in lieu of regualt etching
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I make thes esticks from ranfom pieces of actual sticks.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the illuminated walking stick sounds nice. add color, and you can dual-use it as a light saber ;-)
<rjeffries>
oh I understand that. ;) I was merely saying we have a hackerspace. I have  not joined because it is so far away. I think I can get access now and again for a reasonable fee
<rjeffries>
I don't think they have a CNC mill yet.
<rjeffries>
you may be right. hard to say.
<roh>
rjeffries: heh.. well.. tell me a price for them if you know
<rjeffries>
there is a hackerspace about 80 miles away and I know those guys. They bought a machine (cupcake, I think) which is a low end 3d fab machine
<rjeffries>
roh he does not but I am investigating that. it is so few parts that my small show may not use picj and place, but I do not have a quoute yet.
<roh>
rjeffries: will he sell completed boards (machine placed)?
<rjeffries>
roh I get it. relax. actually teh guy will shiup via surface mail elsewhere VEY cheaply
<rjeffries>
this PCBs themselves are just under $1 and the bag of parts is about $7
<rjeffries>
roh I am not promoting it. it is merely something real cheap that I will play (repeat PLAY) with for my walking stick control system ;)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak what secret little project Sir Werner? Do tell.
<roh>
rjeffries: it will be less flexible and maybe more expensive due to lower sold volume.
<roh>
rjeffries: if there isnt already a breakout board, start there. there are lods of mcu out there and not everbody uses avrs
<rjeffries>
[g2] when do you get fabbed PCBs back?
<rjeffries>
roh that is a good idea. but if [g2] can have an atmel MCU on that little board, the whole thing is smakll and cheap and can have some sensor inputs
<[g2]>
rjeffries, my current arduino board is only about 2x the size of the Femto or 0.82" x 1.42"
<rjeffries>
to be clear my walking stick MCU is not wireless. sorry if I confused anyone
<rjeffries>
roh I think I'll use an AA form factor cell eiether n=1 or maybe n=2 recahrgeable naturally
<rjeffries>
[g2] my bullshit use case is a computer attached to a walking stick that will control a string of LEDs to make the walker (that would be me) safer at dusk
<[g2]>
roh, rjeffries define small if you can
<rjeffries>
roh very true. nbodt is forced to purchase the smaller arduio-like pcbs. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (include upstream) push and wait ;-)
<rjeffries>
understood.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: oh btw, you have to pay more if you want to use some of their logos
<wolfspraul>
hope this makes sense :-) rjeffries thanks for bringing it up!
<rjeffries>
and a special thank you to rejon. I can always count on him for a bit of amusement
<rjeffries>
understood, although not a topic that is intersting to me. I asked a simple question, and now I know. and thank you
<rjeffries>
but still they whine
<rjeffries>
I am interested more for a company I am working with that is all.
<rjeffries>
$2000 is not a huge sum in a comercial enterprise
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul I am quite busty, but thanks again. ;)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: no it's good :-)
<rjeffries>
I have ZERO interest in writing the USB Forum. why would you say something like that
<rjeffries>
rejon and wolfspraul I read the articel, found it interesting. Absolutely no aspersions intended.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: you can write a letter to the USB forum and point to the Qi wiki page saying that Qi shared the vendor code it acquired with all subprojects
<rjeffries>
cool. I pretty much assumed as much.
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul what approach did Sharism take regarding getting official USB ID?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries has this maddening habit of firing off some questions and then disconnecting instants after ...
<rjeffries>
wpwrak i've been busy elsewhere, so have not folowed recent ATben ATusb news. I think Ben to Ben is working with DirtPan. How about ATusb to ATben or ATusb to ATusb?
<rjeffries>
oh, and I see you may need an "armchair General." reporting as ordered, Sir
<rjeffries>
;)
<rjeffries>
Zigduion is about $70 that includes teh radio
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul I was only saying "hi"
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: you were looking for me the other day. What can I do for you?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I'll have a look at Contiki and ask around. thanks
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: if the avrs are big enough, they could probably run contiki, which has a 6lowpan stack. don't know how small you can make it, though.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ah, everybody's doing homegrown protocols then :)
<rjeffries>
there are hardware platforms, Zigduino is nice at $70 no 6LoWpan yet however
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you mean the xbee ? don't know what software they use, though
<rjeffries>
wpwrak have you seen a 6LoWpan implmentation on Arduino yet? would make an interesting end-point for ATben or ATusb to communicate with (sensor application)
2011-07-07
<rjeffries>
when Carlos did his SAKC I think he may have only done 4 layers? not sure
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i think it's 6 layers
<rjeffries>
wpwrak do you remember how many layers Ben NN pcb is?
<rjeffries>
;)
<rjeffries>
did you just accuse me of being RIGHT? omg
<lekernel>
rjeffries, oh yeah, maybe you are right, heh.
<rjeffries>
one could conclude that open hardware (great concept) is a non-starter for SOC
<rjeffries>
lekernel understood.
<rjeffries>
you assume a she. well, so does my wife
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: well, i hope she's pretty ;-)
<rjeffries>
lekernel /sebastian needs to attract a couple of more hardcore people like himself
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: so you're a creationalist ? created with a fixed skill set ? :)
<rjeffries>
I have other fish to fry. pretty interesting fish (to me)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: meanwhile us atheists happily learn new things ;-)
<rjeffries>
ah yes. good point, except that is not my skill set.
<rjeffries>
i'll c heck that out. I can not imagine lekernel ever being rude, even accidentally
<rjeffries>
what a sweetheart. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: Foreign Direct Investment. he wants your money :)
<rjeffries>
FDI ??
<rjeffries>
and to have a righeous linux milkymist SOC needs at least a simple MMU
<rjeffries>
lekernel would havingt linux on milkymist make it easier to attache standard mass market (low cost) USB periferams, e.g. any USB keyboard, not just a hand selecte dto work keyboard?
<roh>
rjeffries: i am full with you.
<roh>
rjeffries: less complex means also more market. i like that
<rjeffries>
they are not attempting any consumer electronics, which is what Nanonote wants to be
<rjeffries>
and in some cases they have decent volume.
<rjeffries>
lekernel they are not doing anything close to as complex as Milkymist. but some of their projects are well above hobbyist
<rjeffries>
Adafruit and Sparkfun likewise, but they ar esomehwat more derivative
<rjeffries>
well they are doing lesser projects, but yes, similar goals indeed