04:34 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: it's not a mere technicality as soon as you want to replace libsystemd0 by a dummy

04:35 <DocScrutinizer05> technically lsusb may depend on udev, but not on larger systemd-* src

04:38 <DocScrutinizer05> but according to Pali it's no longer possible to build lsusb for maemo, thanks to missing systemd

04:39 <DocScrutinizer05> this sounds trivial but there was more to it than just "when it depends on XY, then it needs XY"

04:41 <DocScrutinizer05> with the systemd-cabal douchebags I have a hard time trying "never attribute to malice..."

04:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~nosystemd

04:43 <infobot> it has been said that nosystemd is https://devuan.org http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

04:45 <DocScrutinizer05> mth: the question really isn't which is better, usurpd init or sysvinit. The problem is: with poetterware you have no choice anymore

04:47 <DocScrutinizer05> the choice you got is basically devuan and that took over 2 years to reach 1st release candidate. Up to anybody's guess how long it would take a single admin to clean out systemd cancer from their system and then even maintain it

04:49 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, you can replace PID1 by another init process. Still you need systemd running as a parocess for all the attached subsystems like udev, cron, ntp, whatnot

04:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and systemd cabal not only feature creeping, they also forcefeed-introduce not-so-subtle semantic changes. (systemd-)Cron suddenly works like anacron, running missed events on resume from suspend, sth that cron never did by itself. login now terminating *all* processes the user started, on logout (nohup needs a patch to tell systemd not to kill it). Resolver now silently uses 8.8.8.8 when there's no working config, NTP also changed

04:54 <DocScrutinizer05> in a weird way. and so on and on

12:26 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: you don't need systemd running for systemd-udevd to run

12:26 <whitequark> that's what I do on my debian system right now...

16:58 <wpwrak> incredible. gnat attacked at mid-day. those beasts know no limits.

17:14 <whitequark> yeah, the FOSS Ada tooling is bad

17:21 <wpwrak> ;-))

20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: thanks for clarification about udev. good to know

20:47 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: gnat is the gnu ada compiler

20:47 <whitequark> and it's bad

20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> aah :-)

20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> s/dor/for/

20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> then otoh all devels seem to hate it

21:16 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: Ada isn't half bad but it has a LOT of ceremony

21:16 <whitequark> and there aren't any good FOSS compilers (or really any except gnat)

21:16 <whitequark> so it's not really usable in the broader FOSS scene

21:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I see. Thanks

21:17 <DocScrutinizer05> Yeah, I guess Ada compilers need heavy and expensive certification

21:18 <DocScrutinizer05> so this would explain why not so much FOSS support for them

21:19 <DocScrutinizer05> any commercial enterprise wouldn't use and thus not improve/contribute to gnat

21:19 <DocScrutinizer05> right?

21:21 <whitequark> no idea

21:21 <whitequark> I think Ada is just very niche and maybe nearly dead

21:21 <whitequark> barely anyone outside of DoD uses it