DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<sb0> DocScrutinizer05, http://debianfork.org/
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<DocScrutinizer05> great!
<DocScrutinizer05> in the end this might be a storm that cleans the air and puts those "it's desktop, and desktop only" distros to where they belong: a niche in linuxland for those who want a pseudo-windows
<larsc> well, some people talk and some people walk
<larsc> I think this is more talk than walk
<whitequark> I'd expect that normal Debian process will resolve this, without these threats
<whitequark> we'll see
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<pcercuei> hopefully
<mth> this article states that the real issue is that there is no alternative implementation for logind: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html
<mth> it's easy to be against something, but to make real progress it would be good to offer alternatives
<mth> so instead of threatening to fork, actually fork, not in a hostile way but in a way to demonstrate a working system without systemd
<whitequark> what?
<whitequark> the systems worked perfectly without systemd, until some morons from GNOME decided it has to be a mandatory requirement.
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<mth> having a GUI to administrate the system is in itself not a bad idea
<mth> having a management API with only one implementation is the problem
<whitequark> having a management API which is written for and only for a single GUI implementation is the issue
<mth> in particular if that one implementation is suffering from scope creep
<whitequark> it's in extension a poorly separated part of GNOME, which is a kitchen sink for whatever abstractions GNOME might want
<whitequark> I definitely do not want a poorly separated part of GNOME to overtake every vital function on my system.
<larsc> KDE will depend on systemd for session management
<whitequark> so?
<kyak> "a complex collection of dozens of tightly coupled binaries" -> coreutils? :)
<whitequark> tightly coupled?
<whitequark> (besides, it's not like I think coreutils are a marvel of engineering either)
<kyak> most utilities from coreutils are designed to work with other utilities from coreutils. It's hard to imaging a one-liner without calling at least two utilities from coreutils
<kyak> so yeah, tightly coupled
<whitequark> I don't think you understand what "tight coupling" is
<whitequark> the utilities from coreutils have a well-defined (if somewhat weak) interface: plaintext
<whitequark> it's not going to change. grep is not going to suddenly start requiring json or \0 instead of \n.
<whitequark> whereas in case of systemd, you have utilities which talk via a complex protocol which changes at will of the developers. it's neither documented nor guaranteed to stay same--indeed, it's essentially guaranteed to break often
<kyak> is this what troubles veteran unix admins?
<kyak> is it the technical side, like you described, what bothers them - or the phylosophical?
<larsc> change is not good!
<whitequark> there is no difference
<whitequark> larsc: I'm not against change. I think it's time for sysvinit to go
<whitequark> I just don't want the change to be done by incompetent people.
<whitequark> say, I'd take upstart (still used in Chrome OS and some ?Ubuntu flavors) or initng (sadly, long dead) over systemd at any time of day
<whitequark> I've used both when I maintained a sort of linux distribution (it was a bit like Angstrom, before Angstrom got popular)
<kyak> i'll just watch for survival of the fittest
<whitequark> the fittest is Windows XP, obviously
<kyak> seems to be replaced slowly but steadily, so no
<whitequark> consider this: lots of people are actively trying to get rid of Windows XP, and it still has how much more market share than all of GNU/Linux distros combined? 10x?
<kyak> this proves that people are slow to accept changes
<whitequark> in my view, this proves that Windows XP is a much better OS
<kyak> if so, than sysvinit is much worse than systemd :)
<kyak> because people are voting
<kyak> even more, there is no good alternative to systemd.. because if it was, wouldn't the comminuty eagerly use it?
<kyak> in other words - if systemd is bad, why is it so popular?
<whitequark> if smoking kills you, why is it so popular?
<whitequark> please, learn to troll better, or something, and then return
<kyak> you can make many analogies, but this doesn't answer the question
<kyak> i'm not trolling ffs.
<kyak> but you just finished this conversaion
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<ysionneau> for those who haven't seen it: http://forkfedora.org/
<kyak> hilarious :)
<jbenedetto> along with http://debianfork.org/
<kyak> really?
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<wpwrak> bah. i can top this: /etc/rc.d/init.d/sendmail -> #!/bin/sh exec /etc/my-scripts/sendmail-init
<wpwrak> see, just one line. clearly, my system is superior ;-)
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<pcercuei> it won't work, it's a co,,ent
<pcercuei> comment*
<ysionneau> in two lines :)
<ysionneau> wpwrak: I just double click on the sendmail icon on my desktop, no one can beat that!
<wpwrak> i guess the next step would be to have it running somewhere in the cloud ;-)
<ysionneau> yeah more buzzwords
<whitequark> you know, wpwrak, otherwise that would be fully
<whitequark> funny*
<wpwrak> yoda 2.0 ;-)
<whitequark> except that a typical crappy startup really does depend on 10-20 external HTTP services that correspond to trivial Unix tools mostly
<whitequark> it's extra fun when half of them is based on the same provider and they go down
<wpwrak> ls -> listcloud.com ;-)
<whitequark> it's squared more fun when after a year, half of them go on "an incredible journey"
<wpwrak> yeah. mergers and acquisitions have never been quite that much fun ;-))
<kyak> all these letters.. were written by the same person --)
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<mth> whitequark: so startups aren't selling their product when they get acquired, they're selling their employees?
<pempernik> hey
<mth> hi pempernik
<pempernik> how are you mth?
<mth> fine, thanks
<pempernik> good day today.
<pempernik> got confirmation for a grant to fund for my research
<mth> what are you researching?
<pempernik> nanofabrication stuff
<eintopf> wow
<pempernik> pushing the technology further using a particle-charged beam and self-assembly.
<eintopf> how many atoms I need for one transistor?
<eintopf> currently
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<pempernik> 10
<pempernik> 2 nm
<pempernik> we're on the path to single atmo transistors
<pempernik> atom
<pempernik> im resposible for everything, which is empowering but also kinda intimidating
<eintopf> oh, ok.
<pempernik> yep
<eintopf> and when I can put these things into my brain
<pempernik> i got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it
<pempernik> im picking up managerial skills oddly enough
<eintopf> undergrad students are the best :)
<pempernik> soon enough i hope :D
<pempernik> we made a new superconducting computer chip recently
<pempernik> thats like 50-100 times more energy efficient
<pempernik> brb
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<larsc> eintopf: summer interns are the best
<whitequark> mth: not quite
<whitequark> the team is selling themselves.
<whitequark> usually at an acquihire, the company gets talent, and employees get to cash out their stock options.
<whitequark> pempernik: "i got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it"
<whitequark> should add something to the end so that it will sound like the las vegas quote :)
<pempernik> sorry, im ignorant about that reference.
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<qwebirc50791> hello
<qwebirc50791> How I can to buy a SIE board, I am colombian?
<pempernik> ebay?
<qwebirc50791> If somebody can to help my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com
<qwebirc50791> If somebody can to help me, my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com
<qwebirc50791> Ok, thanks.
<qwebirc50791> i don't find the sie board, pempernik can give a link?
<qwebirc50791> of corse, of ebay link.
<larsc> chances are quite low that you can still find one
<qwebirc50791> what I want is http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/SIE
<larsc> I know
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<whitequark> there are plenty of similar boards these days, easier to obtain and even cheaper
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<wpwrak> hmm ... Veteran Unix Admins ... so i guess, if it should come to forking, the appropriate name for the debian fork would be "Cthulux", Great Old One
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