Textmode has quit [Quit: "It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."]
Textmode has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jluis has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
atommann has joined #qi-hardware
wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware
astr has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware
dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
dandon_ is now known as dandon
xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Textmode has quit [Quit: "It was one dev, naked in a room with a carton of cigarettes, a thermos full of coffee and bourbon, and all his summoned angels."]
xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
xiangfu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end this might be a storm that cleans the air and puts those "it's desktop, and desktop only" distros to where they belong: a niche in linuxland for those who want a pseudo-windows
<larsc>
well, some people talk and some people walk
<larsc>
I think this is more talk than walk
<whitequark>
I'd expect that normal Debian process will resolve this, without these threats
<mth>
it's easy to be against something, but to make real progress it would be good to offer alternatives
<mth>
so instead of threatening to fork, actually fork, not in a hostile way but in a way to demonstrate a working system without systemd
<whitequark>
what?
<whitequark>
the systems worked perfectly without systemd, until some morons from GNOME decided it has to be a mandatory requirement.
kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<mth>
having a GUI to administrate the system is in itself not a bad idea
<mth>
having a management API with only one implementation is the problem
<whitequark>
having a management API which is written for and only for a single GUI implementation is the issue
<mth>
in particular if that one implementation is suffering from scope creep
<whitequark>
it's in extension a poorly separated part of GNOME, which is a kitchen sink for whatever abstractions GNOME might want
<whitequark>
I definitely do not want a poorly separated part of GNOME to overtake every vital function on my system.
<larsc>
KDE will depend on systemd for session management
<whitequark>
so?
<kyak>
"a complex collection of dozens of tightly coupled binaries" -> coreutils? :)
<whitequark>
tightly coupled?
<whitequark>
(besides, it's not like I think coreutils are a marvel of engineering either)
<kyak>
most utilities from coreutils are designed to work with other utilities from coreutils. It's hard to imaging a one-liner without calling at least two utilities from coreutils
<kyak>
so yeah, tightly coupled
<whitequark>
I don't think you understand what "tight coupling" is
<whitequark>
the utilities from coreutils have a well-defined (if somewhat weak) interface: plaintext
<whitequark>
it's not going to change. grep is not going to suddenly start requiring json or \0 instead of \n.
<whitequark>
whereas in case of systemd, you have utilities which talk via a complex protocol which changes at will of the developers. it's neither documented nor guaranteed to stay same--indeed, it's essentially guaranteed to break often
<kyak>
is this what troubles veteran unix admins?
<kyak>
is it the technical side, like you described, what bothers them - or the phylosophical?
<larsc>
change is not good!
<whitequark>
there is no difference
<whitequark>
larsc: I'm not against change. I think it's time for sysvinit to go
<whitequark>
I just don't want the change to be done by incompetent people.
<whitequark>
say, I'd take upstart (still used in Chrome OS and some ?Ubuntu flavors) or initng (sadly, long dead) over systemd at any time of day
<whitequark>
I've used both when I maintained a sort of linux distribution (it was a bit like Angstrom, before Angstrom got popular)
<kyak>
i'll just watch for survival of the fittest
<whitequark>
the fittest is Windows XP, obviously
<kyak>
seems to be replaced slowly but steadily, so no
<whitequark>
consider this: lots of people are actively trying to get rid of Windows XP, and it still has how much more market share than all of GNU/Linux distros combined? 10x?
<kyak>
this proves that people are slow to accept changes
<whitequark>
in my view, this proves that Windows XP is a much better OS
<kyak>
if so, than sysvinit is much worse than systemd :)
<kyak>
because people are voting
<kyak>
even more, there is no good alternative to systemd.. because if it was, wouldn't the comminuty eagerly use it?
<kyak>
in other words - if systemd is bad, why is it so popular?
<whitequark>
if smoking kills you, why is it so popular?
<whitequark>
please, learn to troll better, or something, and then return
<kyak>
you can make many analogies, but this doesn't answer the question
<whitequark>
there are plenty of similar boards these days, easier to obtain and even cheaper
SyntaxTerror has joined #qi-hardware
SyntaxTerror has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
arhuaco has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
arhuaco has joined #qi-hardware
qwebirc50791 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
qwebirc27603 has joined #qi-hardware
qwebirc27603 has quit [Client Quit]
wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving]
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
astr has joined #qi-hardware
sulky has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
sulky has joined #qi-hardware
astr has joined #qi-hardware
pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo]
arhuaco has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
arhuaco has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
hmm ... Veteran Unix Admins ... so i guess, if it should come to forking, the appropriate name for the debian fork would be "Cthulux", Great Old One