DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
<roh> http://scasagrande.blogspot.ca/2012/04/gpibusb-for-sale.html this one... i just never used pics the last 10 years...
<roh> thus no flasher around.. of course i didnt buy kits from him.. someone ordered the parts and the pcbs
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<roh> should be ok
<roh> seems they added a level shifter for jtag and one for rs232 levels
<roh> similar to the moko board, but less specific. quite nice design. and cheap. still not fully open but who cares for such details which are obvious ;)
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<wpwrak> Luke-Jr: maybe you need to get a better soldering iron. oh, and when working with smt and such, always apply plenty of flux. that's the magic ingredient that makes things work properly.
<wpwrak> Luke-Jr: but i can assure you that modern electronic can be soldered by hand :) for example, i soldered all these critters: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/boards-so-far.jpg
<wpwrak> so wouldn't go much smaller than that, though. the contact spacing of the chips is 0.5 mm, the resistors and such have 0402 packages.
<Luke-Jr> wpwrak: maybe. the one I use is from the 1970s
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<wpwrak> you may want to get something a little more modern :) doesn't have to be too fancy. but temperature-controlled is nice. also allows you to adjust the heat. e.g., ~270 C for regular work, more if you have large metal pieces involved
<Luke-Jr> wpwrak: but I wouldn't know what to adjust it to :/
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<rozzin1> Have any of you ever tried using a NanoNote w/ the µSD Wi-Fi adapter as an acess-point?
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<sanderr_> rozzin1: No, but I think I should. :)
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<kyak> guys, what's the difference between 'man 2 recv' and 'man 3 recv'?
<kyak> i understand that 2 is Linux programmer's manual, and 3 is POSIX's
<kyak> but why would i refer to POSIX programmer's manual anyway?
<kyak> it clearly states that "implementation of this interface may differ from Linux or may not be implemented in Linux."
<kyak> so what's the point of 'man 3 recv'?
<whitequark> because you may be trying to write portable code
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<kyak> but how it is portable, if implementation may differ from Linux or not implemented at all?
<whitequark> well, portable code adheres to POSIX
<whitequark> so if you only follow the POSIX manual and do not use anything that is not included there, your code will be portable
<whitequark> in theory at least :)
<kyak> it doesn't say that POSIX is a subset of Linux
<kyak> in fact, it says the opposite
<whitequark> Conforming To
<whitequark> 4.4BSD (these function calls first appeared in 4.2BSD), POSIX.1-2001.
<whitequark> so Linux is a superset of POSIX
<whitequark> (for this call that is)
<whitequark> oh, I see what you mean
<whitequark> the POSIX manual prologue is the same for all POSIX manual pages
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<kyak> ah, ok..
<whitequark> and Linux indeed is not completely compatible with POSIX
<kyak> should one follow POSIX manuals, and cross-reference with Linux manuals from time to time, or vice versa? :)
<whitequark> it depends on what you want to achieve :)
<whitequark> there is quite a bit of Linux-only software which doesn't even try to be portable
<whitequark> *cough* systemd
<kyak> ok, i see your point
<whitequark> additionally there are POSIX extensions which are implemented in one way or another by most *nix systems
<viric> posix doesn't only define portability in terms of kernel syscalls
<viric> the same way, not all software running in a GNU/Linux has to keep posix compatibility to the kernel
<kyak> yeah, definitely not.. That's why Linux programmer's manual is there
<kyak> so one could create posix-incompatible software :)
<whitequark> viric: I'm not sure if POSIX even refers to syscalls
<whitequark> it's defined in terms of behavior of library routines
<whitequark> and `read' isn't exactly close to `sysread'
<viric> exactly
<viric> in fact glibc has code to emulate kernel-side things, in case you build a glibc for older kernels not having that functionality.
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<rozzin1> kyak, whitequark: man sections 2/3 are not `Linux vs. POSIXl', it's `kernel vs. library'.
<whitequark> >This manual page is part of the POSIX Programmer's Manual.
<whitequark> The prototypes given above follow glibc2.
<whitequark> pretty sure it's both library
<rozzin1> There's plenty in section 3 that's either Linux-specific or GNU-specific.
<whitequark> oh I see
<larsc> whitequark: man man
<whitequark> it's confusing
<rozzin1> If you specifically want the *POSIX* manual for library calls, you need to look in section 3p.
<rozzin1> Some of the pages in 3 are `inherited' from 3p where there's no reason to have a GNU- or Linux-specific page.
<whitequark> I see
<whitequark> thanks for explanation
<whitequark> larsc: that also doesn't mention 3p :p
<rozzin1> The 2-vs-3 `kernel vs. library' distinction is much clearer in some man pages than others, e.g.:
<wpwrak> the 2/3 distinction isn't all that useful, except maybe if you're developing a libc. and then i wouldn't be so sure whether 2/3 follows the actual implementation or just history
<wpwrak> for compatibility, you really need to look at what the man page says. there are also many extensions that go beyond posix. and of course, no all man page tell the whole truth :)
<rozzin1> Hrm. I'm actually having a hard time finding a good 2/3 example.
<whitequark> rozzin1: :D
<rozzin1> I had one just the other day, though--I swear :p
<wpwrak> so if you really want to be sure, you start from the official posix documentation
<rozzin1> It's easier to find 3/3p examples, like "man 3 basename" vs. "man 3p basename".
<whitequark> you know how I feel about this? (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
<rozzin1> I work with a bunch of people who build on Mac OS.
<wpwrak> that looked a little odd. where those three faces ?
<larsc> I don't even have 3p
<larsc> wpwrak: one face and a table
<larsc> don't you do unicode?
<whitequark> wpwrak: "table flip"
<whitequark> the ╯︵ is his left hand and a "swoosh", ┻━┻ is an upside-down table
<whitequark> by itself, flipping table is an iconic symbol in Japanese media, much like facepalm is for Western one
<whitequark> (why do I even know all that stuff)
<wpwrak> i see the table. but what's supposed to be the face doesn't look very face-ish. maybe i don't have the right cyrillic fonts installed :)
<wpwrak> or japanese fonts :)
<rozzin1> sanderr_: If you can try it, I'd be really interested it knowing if NanoNote works as an access-point. I'm looking for an `extensible Wi-Fi AP' platform, right now.
<wpwrak> so the japanese flip tables ? interesting. and i thought certainly M$ guys throwing chairs were bad.
<whitequark> no chairs :D
<wpwrak> hmm, that looks actually what i got. i guess i need face recognition 2.0 :)
<whitequark> heh
<whitequark> ╯ are his raised hands, ° are eyes, and □ is the mouth
<whitequark> it's really a completely different style of writing emoticons
<larsc> there is also the reverse one: ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
<wpwrak> cheek-hand-eye-mouth-cheek-hand-arm. a bit surrealist
<wpwrak> ah, the ノ( º _ ºノ) could be hair-cheek-eye-mouth-eye-hair-cheek. that works.
<whitequark> wpwrak: now that you mention it...
<whitequark> (and yes it's not hairs, it's arms)
<wpwrak> strange anatomy :)
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<larsc> well it's contrast to the minimalistic ':)'
<whitequark> wpwrak: i think it's an attempt to convey perspective
<whitequark> as in, he stands 45° wrt/ you
<whitequark> think isometric
<larsc> the '︵' are movement stripes btw
<larsc> to show that the table is moving fast
<wpwrak> ah. i begin to see it. still kinda strange that the arms would be attached to the head, but yes, there is a "piggy throwing table" pattern tehre
<wpwrak> the moral: don't cheat on your ninja-demon girlfriend
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<viric> "Would A Kickstarter Open-Source GPU Work?" Phoronix
<whitequark> Betteridge's law of headlines says that the answer is
<whitequark> NOPE
<wpwrak> "Would a Kick-Open Sourcestarter GPU work " ?
<larsc> some company way or may not opensource their verilog gpu
<larsc> if they get enough money
<wpwrak> some open gpu had been tried several years ago. not sure what happened with it.
<viric> yes, I remember some.
<biot> there's also this one, a thesis project:
<larsc> with about 1 commit
<biot> nah, they worked on it for quite some time, I followed it on G+
<biot> it was only after they turned it in that it was submitted to github, opencores etc
<larsc> it still looks rather dead
<biot> yeah, but then so is that code base the company is pitching to phoronix, no doubt
<larsc> yep, probably just want to squeeze out a last few bucks
<biot> otherwise they wouldn't be pitching it -- they're just seeing if there's any money at all to be made from it still
<biot> and quite possibly ORGFXSoC is less advanced than that one
<biot> but it does bear asking, why does anyone need to pay via kickstarter to get a basic GPU code base?
<viric> they will have to define well what they are going to deliver.
<roh> biot: well.. for starters to pay for the year or so of development which needs to happen first
<viric> or they won't get much money I guess
<roh> and even then a fpga based card will never be worth anything.. atleast outside of development.
<roh> much too slow and power hungry while being expensive. bad combination
<viric> maybe they don't plan to deliver fpgas
<roh> viric: heh.. i dont believe that yet.
<roh> the only ones i know which moved trhough fpga to real asics fast were the bitcoin miners. anybody else... nope.
<wpwrak> so .. make a gpu that's also good at mining bitcoins :)
<roh> i dont make gpus at all. shitty business. annoying customers. no value on quality or stability... booooring.
<roh> just gamerkids, nobody serious.
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<viric> is anyone delivering asic miners?
<viric> I thought there have not been delivers yet
<viric> deliveries
<roh> they do. but only if you ordered and payed last lear
<roh> eh year.
<roh> basically all they make is sold in advance
<viric> but did they *deliver*?
<roh> yes.
<roh> limited amounts, but yes.
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<biot> you would think if they managed to get an ASIC manufactured, it would be in large amounts
<viric> pko
<viric> ok
<roh> biot: yes and no. for the first few batches you do small amounts to limit the impact of failiure.
<roh> making chips is nothing risk free
<roh> if you are sure your design is ok, you go into volume
<biot> ah right. and are they planning to make more?
<roh> sure. but the fabs have lead times of month to years
<roh> you are confused by marketing cycles.
<roh> real hw development takes years
<kyak> thanks guys for 2 vs 3 vs 3p explanation!
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<sanderr_> rozzin1: Might take some time until I'm able to try it, I'm on the road at the moment.
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<sanderr> rozzin1: But I surely will if I'm at home again.
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<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Remove all links of an OPK when moved out of the monitored folder (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/dfad7c3
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix the function that sets the icon of a Link (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/504641a
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Change the "GMenu2X starting" message (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/32d100e
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix translations in user directory not correctly loaded (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/9029dec
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Order the links in alphabetical order (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/bcb3e98
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Allow an OPK to use an icon provided by the theme (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/91f381f
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