Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<wpwrak>
cladamw: heya ! have you seen my comments on the qi-hw list about the footprints ?
<wpwrak>
cladamw: as you can see, i'm slowly catching up with you ;-)
<cladamw>
wpwrak, yes, i saw them. Also thanks for fixes directly. :-)
<wpwrak>
i hope i didn't break anything :)
<wpwrak>
regarding the through-hole-pads, do you agree that there should never be solder paste on them ?
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: gui_status.c (show_pad_type): share pad type to name translation (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/57dbeb1
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c: move drawing part of ps_pad_name and ps_pad to separate functions (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/238830c
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c (hatch): change argument from layer set to pad type (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/26b74e8
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c: show key for pad types at bottom of fullpage drawings (-P -K) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/d250ed2
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c (prologue): set line join style to "round" in showoutlined (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/c28f701
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c: cleaned up geometry calculation for pad type key (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/ed69b7b
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: postscript.c: only show the key for pad types actually used in the package (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/b4d61a8
<wpwrak>
ah, xiangfu is in hot pursuit :)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:fped (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/52c288e
<cladamw>
wpwrak, not exactly that should never for the future, it depends on h/w applications.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: genkicat/fped.c (fped_ps_entry): use fped -P -K (key) and adjust position (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/d67e8ec
<wpwrak>
cladamw: under what circumstances would you want solder paste on through-hole pads ?
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, I understand now how, .sch --> .net --(fped/footprints)--> .brd.
<xiangfu>
:)
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<xiangfu>
but do those jobs from 0 is not easy. why the C/R is here. why there is a ferrite_chip etc.
<cladamw>
wpwrak, the solder paste layer on PTH hole can be kept there once. Since stencil maker they identify/determine automatically which PTH with solder paste or be noticed by our demands. Considerations or comments from you are good though.
<cladamw>
wpwrak, in eastern stencil maker, when they see gerber, the PTHs will directly be disable by s/w. We don't need to take care of them. It's more like a common condition to speed up process. But good comments from you. so no feedback to you on thread. :-)
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<wpwrak>
xiangfu: yeah, the whole workflow is a little tricky ;-)
<wpwrak>
cladamw: hmm. i don't like the idea of relying on the fab to fix our gerbers for us :)
<cladamw>
wpwrak, sure. :-) as better work flow in Qi is good on own rules. :-)
<wpwrak>
cladamw: i wonder in what cases you'd want to have solder paste on TH pads. it seems to me that the default should be no solder paste, agreed ?
<wpwrak>
cladamw: in pads.fpd, the round ones are "bare" while the square and rectangular ones are with solder paste. shall i make them all bare ?
<cladamw>
you could do so. I've been requested twice when did 19" chassis(frame) stack up to hook main boards with PTH(3.5mm diameters) with extra 8 small PTH surrounded 3.5mm PTH, then used solder paste to cover both, to solve system ground issues. the solder paste there for purposes are for adding strength on contacts of current flow and strengthen mechanical tolerances.
<cladamw>
wpwrak, yes, you can make them all bare. :)
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, where is the information indicate if there are solder or bare?
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<wpwrak>
xiangfu: in fped, it's in the color of the pad. and when you select the pad, there's a clickable field in the input area that says "normal", "bare", etc.
<wpwrak>
cladamw: (chassis) okay, that sounds exotic enough that you may even want to make a special footprint for that case :)
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<cladamw>
wpwrak, that time to fix EMC. :-)
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<xiangfu>
wpwrak, got it. thanks.
<wpwrak>
cladamw: so i guess it's safe to make all the TH pads bare
<wpwrak>
cladamw: (EMC) i'm not sure that process is actually reliable :)
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: most of the footprints are quite boring. things get more interesting when you go to QFN parts, with solder paste islands
<wpwrak>
BGAs get solder paste, right ? or are the balls already enough and the pads are bare ?
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, QFN, no 'foot' but only 'footprint' :-)
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<wpwrak>
cladamw: what do we do with parts that have TH and SMT ? e.g., usb_a_plug_smt.fpd
<wpwrak>
cladamw: solder paste everywhere ? solder paste only on the SMT pads ?
<cladamw>
wpwrak, pad[1::4](SMT) with solder paste, the other two pad[5::6](TH) are not necessary. :-)
<wpwrak>
atusb has that critter ... it actually looks as if they soldered the whole connector manually :)
<cladamw>
but like i said, if you make all 6 pads with solder paste, it won't be trouble when making stencil. :-) but if we want to define well. then we define rule for pad[5::6] :-)
<cladamw>
yes, i saw atusb samples here are mostly like human soldering not to use a through hole reflow machine. :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, that connector is a tricky beast. it gave us a bit of headache. if you include it in the SMT process, you may as well have solder paste on all pads, including the TH ones.
<wpwrak>
however, if you do it manually, you wouldn't want solder paste in the holes ...
<wpwrak>
for atusb, that made a lot of sense. it's just one silly little component anyway. nothing like the TH orgy that M1 is ;-)
<cladamw>
wpwrak, sure, one won't make/face a hole (aperture) as solder paste. but for speeding up process in manufacturer, stencil maker works for it. :-)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/usb_a_plug_smt.fpd: mixed TH/SMT; change the two TH pads to "bare" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/c0e33e5
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/meander-2450MHz.fpd: make all pads "trace" (regression) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/cbfba83
<wpwrak>
i just try to imaging how much fun doing all this would have been with kicad's module editor ...
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<cladamw>
this case may not be easily proposed out in kicad list as targets may be not the same.
<wpwrak>
yeah, i think kicad's module editor implicitly makes pads with a hole "bare". so you couldn't run into this specific problem.
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<viric>
wpwrak: yes, m1 looks quite flexible :)
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<whitequark>
btw
<whitequark>
internet is censored in russia now
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<Jay7>
hehe
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<wpwrak>
so that's good news ? now you're allowed to say openly that there's censorship ?
<whitequark>
oh, not exactly
<whitequark>
prior to the law which has passed, sites sometimes were closed, but that was rare, exceptional, and had nothing to do with ISPs/registrars
<wpwrak>
ah, i see. you're still not allowed to admit that you weren't allowed to talk about such things in the past :)
<whitequark>
now this is common, and ISPs/registrars must oblige and have a requirement for filtering hw.
<whitequark>
lol
* whitequark
shrugs
<wpwrak>
(rare, exceptional, ...) like a visit from the secret police ? :)
<whitequark>
wolfspraul: remind me, which VPN service do you use?
<whitequark>
wpwrak: more like a visit from copyright holders
<whitequark>
it was the single most common reason
<whitequark>
there were only few cases of politics-related stuff removal, and, well, with the Streisand effect that wasn't effective anyway.
<whitequark>
e.g. there were one or two blogs removed from livejournal.com, and frankly nobody actually knew about them before
<whitequark>
but yeah, stopping delegation of russian thepiratebay has caused some resonance
<whitequark>
in a ~day it migrated to .org domain.
<whitequark>
well, what could you expect from a country where a nationwide social network Vkontakte basically hosts the biggest archive of pirated material.
<whitequark>
in case you are curious, the law has the number 89417-6
<whitequark>
oh, and of course the alleged reason is child pornography. in the last two weeks there were more discussions about that than in previous ten years combined.
<whitequark>
e.g. someone said that Wikipedia and Yandex [biggest russian search engine] are driven by, quote, "child pornography lobby".
<wolfspraul>
whitequark: I use my own with openvpn, tunneling to a 7.90 EUR / month hetzner virtual machine
<whitequark>
yeah, sounds sane. I'll make the same setup, I think
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<wpwrak>
whitequark: i sometimes wonder if child pornography wasn't invented specifically for the purpose of censorship :)
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<larsc>
hm, qi-hw server down?
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<kristianpaul>
mm
<kristianpaul>
fidelio still up..
<larsc>
or corporate wirefall blocking it? ;)
<larsc>
firewall
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<wolfspraul>
yeah, strange
<wolfspraul>
one sec
<kristianpaul>
larsc: not yet ;)
<larsc>
kristianpaul: the firewall tends to block a lot of stuff, but luckily I do have my very own unrestricted internet connection here at work
<wolfspraul>
well, not so good right now
<wolfspraul>
worst case it will be down until tomorrow morning german time, >12h from now
<wolfspraul>
let's see ...
<wolfspraul>
I did a cold reboot (power cycle) but so far it's not coming back up. if lucky just going through fsck now
<wolfspraul>
if not so lucky then it's something else, but I can't find the old java-based rescue console anymore, maybe hetzner removed it? oh well
<larsc>
should be still there in the control panel
<wpwrak>
whee ! shipment from fedex made it safe and sound, despite the kafkaesque import restrictions.
<wpwrak>
fedex/digi-key even
<kristianpaul>
good, what you ordered?
<wolfspraul>
larsc: I can't see it anymore, do you have a server where it's still there?
<wolfspraul>
it used to be some java-based thing
<wpwrak>
a few MCUs, an some minor stuff (FETs, caps, LEDs)
<kristianpaul>
no fgpas? :)
<kristianpaul>
btw you ordered using bom tools?
<wpwrak>
MCUs: this time ATtiny167 and LPC1112. didn't have these in my collection yet.
<wpwrak>
(fpgas) naw, way too expensive for what i need
<wpwrak>
(boom) no, just manually. don't even have the circuit for those parts yet :)
<larsc>
wolfspraul: I'll check when I'm back home, don't have my login credentials with me
<larsc>
wolfspraul: well and if I manage to resurect my laptop which has them
<wolfspraul>
no stress
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's only for virtual servers, but this is a physical one
<wolfspraul>
but too bad the machine doesn't come back up right now
<larsc>
got a replacement fan today, I ordered a 04W0407 and got a 04W0409, hopefully it will work as well
<wolfspraul>
I think I first wait a little longer, the fsck will hopefully not get stuck and should come out after 30-40 minutes I think
<kristianpaul>
that usually happen yes (fsck)
<wolfspraul>
I could try to boot into the rescue system but I'm kinda lazy and hope that the old machine will just come back and don't want to touch/break it...
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<larsc>
wpwrak: does dsv support multiple catalog files?
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<wpwrak>
larsc: yes, you can have more than one file
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<wpwrak>
larsc: you can also have a dsv repository at each level in your directory hierarchy. e.g., you could have one for /home/qi-hw/my-project/ and one for /home/qi-hw/
<wpwrak>
larsc: a search crawls towards root until it finds something that matches
<larsc>
awsome
<wpwrak>
and all in less than 200 lines of shell ;-)
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<larsc>
does it cache downloaded files?
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<hellekin>
hi people, do you have any contacts with CEITEC in Porto Alegre? I'm going there next week and thought about visiting the chip fab and talking them into producing free chips
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<wolfspraul>
sorry I can't get the qi server back up right now
<wolfspraul>
the machine is running again, but there are a number of corruptions in the rootfs of the virtual machine now
<kristianpaul>
nanonote's is mr11u with is same as 703n with battery
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul that's rather cool. price is crazy low as well. ;)
<rjeffries>
If anyone is interested (I doubt it in this venue) my Raspberry Pi arrived about a week ago. Works ok/fine, especially with new Raspbian flavor of Debian
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<wolfspraul>
going to sleep - maybe I just setup a new machine tomorrow rather than fixing the old one
<wolfspraul>
server is down for a bit...
<wolfspraul>
(for right now :-))
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<wpwrak>
hellekin: (free chips) sounds like fun :) what chips do you have in mind ?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (rootfs corruption) oh joy ...
<kristianpaul>
:-|
<viric>
let me guess about the rootfs corruption... ext3?
<viric>
:)
<viric>
wpwrak: what is that dsv?
<wpwrak>
viric: it's a shell script that parses a file that tells it where PDFs (typically of data sheets) are, downloads and caches them, and lets you invoke a PDF viewer (xpdf, etc.) on them with a short command.
<wpwrak>
viric: e.g., in the example i posted to the list, you'd invoke xpdf on the USB 2.0 spec with "dsv usb20"
<wpwrak>
viric: since the file is cached, it's fast and you don't have to worry about network issues or the source having moved/disappeared
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<wpwrak>
(that is, after you've obtained your initial copy)
<larsc>
no it's not so awsome anymore ;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: hmm ?
<viric>
ahh ok
<larsc>
I'd prefer if I would not have to worry about the file disappearing, even without obtaining a inital copy
<larsc>
that would be a killer feature
<wpwrak>
larsc: well, the problem is that we can't legally share most of the data sheets ...
<larsc>
wpwrak: i was trying to make a joke, but obviously failed ;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: ... but of course, if someone's cache (or items from it) would somehow end up at a place you can access, dsv would be more than willing to worth with that
<wpwrak>
larsc: naw, you actually hit one of the reasons why i wrote dsv ;-)
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<larsc>
I want to use it, because I have this bad habbit of just entering the part name into google and end up with datasheet.pdf datasheet(1).pdf datasheet(2).pdf ... in my downloads folder
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<viric>
I know that habit
<viric>
with the difference of.. who needs a download folder?
<larsc>
I do
<wpwrak>
i hate download folders. either it's something that's totally ephemeral or it's something that already has a well-defined home somewhere in my file system. i want it to be exactly there, not in $HOME or some obscure choice of the browser.
<wpwrak>
i.e., what i want is a nice wget-able URL. i'll take care of the rest. and yes, paraphrasing Linus: fuck you, sourceforge, fuck you !
<larsc>
well, at least you don't have to install a download client
<wpwrak>
yeah, what the world needs is a "1N4148 DATA SHEET APP" ;-) (ideally with mandatory registration and that installs itself such that it's always somewhere on the screen)
<wpwrak>
(1N4148) as an example of a rather trivial and very common diode
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<larsc>
* Requires iPhone4 or later
<wpwrak>
yeah :)
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<gargon>
does qi-hardware.com is down at this moment?
<larsc>
yes
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