<razzy>
do classes only work when in val of symbol?
<Regenaxer>
yes
<razzy>
i was hoping class would be in properties. and i could add class and remove class in simple way
<Regenaxer>
What should that class "do"?
<Regenaxer>
And you *can* set and remove the value of a symbol any time, even easier than a property
<razzy>
hmm hmm,.. i hope to get used to it
<razzy>
imho class adds some predefined inheretable property/behaviour/(code or data)
<Regenaxer>
correct
<Regenaxer>
In fact only code, the data is implicit in the code
<razzy>
that is why i would expect it in property of symbol :]
<Regenaxer>
yes, the properties hold the data
<Regenaxer>
the value holds the class, and thus behavior (code)
<Regenaxer>
The value may also hold private methods
<razzy>
i was hoping picolisp has same behaviour for code and data
<Regenaxer>
First methods, then the list of classes
<Regenaxer>
Data do not behave, only code does
<Regenaxer>
Data are passive, code is active
<razzy>
picolisp behave *to* code or data
<Regenaxer>
yes
<razzy>
thx anyway
<Regenaxer>
Formally there is no difference
<Regenaxer>
between code and data
<Regenaxer>
but in the head of the programmer there is
<Regenaxer>
It depends on the context
<Regenaxer>
And objects and OOP are all about in the head
<razzy>
it is confusing to me, because i do like only some artificial distinctions
<razzy>
i agree, some people might like it
<razzy>
what surprised me lately, when i have destructive function(inc (0)) in code. it remembers progress every time i call it. completely blown a way with this
<Regenaxer>
Yeah, the (0) is just data
<Regenaxer>
a pointer to a cell with zero in the CAR
<razzy>
i love it
<Regenaxer>
Effectively a private static variable
<razzy>
inaccesible from elsewhere ]
<Regenaxer>
yes, almost
<Regenaxer>
at least difficult to access
<Regenaxer>
You can do it with (nth foo 2 1 ...
<razzy>
:D :D
<razzy>
Regenaxer: what if i want to asign +Mineclass to existing (inc) function?
<Regenaxer>
Functions and methods are separate, a builtin like 'inc' cannot be modified this way
<Regenaxer>
(unless you redefine 'inc' of course)
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<razzy>
hmm, i cannot even add property of build in functions
<razzy>
i get that i cannot change buildins
<Regenaxer>
This should always be possible
<Regenaxer>
you can change all, value and properties
<Regenaxer>
(put 'inc 'a 1)
<razzy>
my bad than
<razzy>
it possible
<Regenaxer>
You can even change T and NIL
<Regenaxer>
not so easily sometimes, as it gives errors
<Regenaxer>
but (let T or (let NIL works :)
<Regenaxer>
: (let NIL 1 (inc NIL))
<Regenaxer>
-> 2
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<razzy>
Regenaxer: do you see why would be +MyClass usefull for existing functions?
<Regenaxer>
How should it?
<razzy>
I could asign class "destructive" to some functions and asign them some methods
<razzy>
now i can only asign property destructive, which is not as powerfull
<razzy>
and in time evolve whole OOP machinery for properties
<razzy>
consider "in time" as infinite :] with current progress
<razzy>
now i why u used symbols for pieces. because it is easier to reasign piece in memory.
<razzy>
and thus faster
<razzy>
*reasign symbol in memory
<Regenaxer>
Sorry, razzy, we have guests :)
<Regenaxer>
I would say just try it
<Regenaxer>
Almost any manipulations can be done in pil
<razzy>
np, i was thinking, i could do with just properties for forseeable future.
<Regenaxer>
Right, why not.
<beneroth>
heya
<beneroth>
hi Regenaxer :)
<rick42>
hello Regenaxer, razzy and beneroth!
<rick42>
what's the big deal about picolisp-mode for emacs? IMO there is no problem with the way things are now
<beneroth>
T
<rick42>
hey m8 o/
<beneroth>
write to mailing list. I prolly should too.
<rick42>
i struggle with not sounding as if i'm saying "the problem is not debian, it's your (personal) emacs setup". or at least sounding like that. hehe
<beneroth>
yeah try to be nice. there is a wider variety of people and (legitimate) opinions than one can imagine
<rick42>
the more picolisp modes for emacs that are available, the better, say i. diversity is good for the user: pick what you want
<beneroth>
or so I try to remind myself
<rick42>
T
<rick42>
i think milkypostman on the melpa gh thread said something like "picolisp (users) need to get their act together" (because of the diversity of modes/packages). my first thought was "fuck off" :)
<rick42>
tbh :)
<beneroth>
lol
<beneroth>
you got our act together, stubbornly so :P
<rick42>
my second thought (which doesn't invalidate my first thought :) was that milkly (and others) are operating from the (IMO false) assumption that melpa should be the one-stop shopping point for emacs packages. i could not disagree more.
<razzy>
imho, diversity that do not offer some benefits now or in future is harmfull. it is really hard to judge, because museum pieces offer proof of past.
<rick42>
it's just software (and very small one at that). it can be changed or replaced.
<razzy>
actively used software is one of the hardest thing to replace, because it has not-trivial connections to everything else.
<Regenaxer>
Hi rick42, beneroth!
<Regenaxer>
Sorry, busy here
<rick42>
yes, but having a choice among what packages i can use in emacs is not that same as having to replace emacs
<rick42>
hey Regenaxer! no problem. Guests, eh?
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, no worries. have a nice evening with your family and guests!
<beneroth>
razzy, as of know all variations are in active use by different picolisp people.
<rick42>
T. i use tj's (for instance)
<beneroth>
I also fail to see any disadvantage of having this current situation. if you are an serious emacs user (I'm kinda not) and you get your stuff from MELPA, fine. If you use the one from the picolisp distro, fine. if you happen to install picolisp using debian and somehow the emacs files are missing there (I don't think so, unsure).. well you should get a newer version anyway :P
<beneroth>
if one meets an obstacle annoying enough to want to do something about it, then I think its easy to find the other available versions, be it via mailing list or IRC :)
<beneroth>
if one is a person who needs pampering... well I guess most people in the picolisp community ended up here because they they value other things than ease of access and hipster-coolness.
<rick42>
i will try flexibeast's version whenever i get some time. looks interesting / fun / useful
<beneroth>
so most people probably don't care about changing things (even in the cases where it would be good, *cough*)
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<rick42>
"we fear change" --Garth (from Wayne's World movie) :)
<razzy>
"fear changes us" :]
<rick42>
:)
<beneroth>
well yes I actually started to hate updates. I fear the day I'm forced to re-install my OS (I'm on older ubuntu).
<tankf33der>
i've added more utf8 tests, pil32 and 64 passed.
<rick42>
that fear is borne from pain (the pain of things breaking catastrophically). so far, fbsd and obsd package managers and system update managers have been pretty solid for me in the past few years. thank $DIETY
<rick42>
tankf33der: which os platforms?
<tankf33der>
should work for any
<tankf33der>
should work for any os
<rick42>
ok thanks man
<razzy>
i would not touch my system if i havent second one working reasonably :]
<rick42>
razzy: i like your system for routers. i forget which ones do that. i think that's a great idea
<razzy>
rick42: routers?
<rick42>
yeah, there was a router setup that somebody did with two flash drives and it would load an update to the other drive and boot off that one; if anything when bad in the update, you could switch back to the original drive (or was it partition?) to boot the old system back and then retry the update.
<rick42>
i'm sorry i forgot who / what did this setup
<rick42>
what you said reminded me of that router setup
<razzy>
ah, not my direct work :]
<rick42>
ah sorry my fault. this: "i like your system for routers" meant "i like the update/update system that you described, but as applied to the issue of updating routers" Hehehe. mea culpa
<Regenaxer>
:)
<tankf33der>
minipicolisp can run chess.l
<rick42>
+1
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
cool
<tankf33der>
chess.l works under address and undefined sanitizers too.