11:56 <razzy> after reading logs about IRC... i have impression that encryption is relatively easily added to IRC.

12:01 <beneroth> razzy, FreeNode offers to connect with TLS. so you just have to enable it in your client.

12:03 <beneroth> the thing IRC users should be aware of, that there is not much guarantee that one nickname has always the same person behind it. if the person protects the nick on the server (e.g. freenode), then you have that. but yeah, this protection can run out.

12:22 <Demosthenex> i noticed that picolisp has an application framework built in, but it's web based. anyone have a text only (TUI) front end?

12:22 <Demosthenex> for those tiny apps you need to access via ssh and not a bloated browser.

12:28 <tankf33der> try w3m?

12:31 <beneroth> hi Demosthenex, welcome here, nice you found your way to our IRC :)

12:32 <beneroth> as tankf33der said, cli browser are a thing (actually they're quite liked by most people in our community)

12:33 <beneroth> also you can easily write cli applications with picolisp, though there is no ready-made application framework as for the web

12:34 <beneroth> you can also use picolisp with terminal gui like ncurses. vip (picolisp implementation/variant of vim) is such an example: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?vip

12:35 <beneroth> if you detest bloat then you came to the right place here

12:56 <Regenaxer> Hi Demosthenex! Yes, as tankf33der said, w3m as a frontend is indeed an option. I use it often via ssh sessions on remote servers

12:56 <Regenaxer> tankf33der, btw, thanks for testing the PostgreSQL library!

12:57 <tankf33der> Regenaxer: :)

15:14 <Demosthenex> right. let me throw this out here. my email is in mutt. i can access it from my phone, my laptop, and any computer with an ssh client. the executable is 1 MB and it takes a few mb of ram during execution... i'd like to be able to have a few small database CRUD apps, think with interfaces like dbase or as/400 forms...

15:14 <Demosthenex> it's jsut text. there's no need for me to run webservers and database servers, or launch enormous browsers or install additional software.

15:15 <Demosthenex> i've been looking for a TUI library in a modern langauge, and have been routinely disappointed. when i was in compsci school, every langauge we ran had a TUI lib (borland turbovision) by default.

15:16 <Demosthenex> i was excited to see a lisp variant with an application framework lib, but its web based. that's a nonstarter.

15:16 <Demosthenex> i would be keen to know if there's a tui lib

15:16 <razzy> Demosthenex: i use REPL in my app

15:16 <Demosthenex> razzy: repl/cli != data entry forms

15:17 <Demosthenex> don't get me wrong, cli's snazzy and fast

15:18 <razzy> you could print and read custom messages https://rosettacode.org/wiki/User_input/Text

15:18 <Regenaxer> Demosthenex, haha, we are on the same line )

15:18 <Regenaxer> I use mutt in Termux / Android

15:19 <Regenaxer> *Everything* I do is in text mode in Termux, also this IRC client (written in picolisp of course)

15:20 <Regenaxer> But you can *really* use the pil web gui in a text browser

15:20 <Regenaxer> It needs on JS, CSS or cookies

15:20 <Regenaxer> s/on/no

15:20 <Demosthenex> isn't that overkill though? i'm looking for a single process tui, not a client server with a text browser.

15:21 <Regenaxer> ok, yes, you start the server separately. But you can have multiple sessions to that program then

15:21 <Regenaxer> And finally, to roll out to customers, you don't have to write a new gui

15:22 <Regenaxer> (which customer will accept a text user interface these days?)

15:22 <Demosthenex> me.

15:22 <Regenaxer> You *are* a customer, or you *have* such customers?

15:23 <Demosthenex> i'm so embarrassed with the state of the computer software industry. i shouldn't have to consume gigabytes of ram and layers upon layers of needless abstraction for me to fill in a timecard for basic project management i could do in a spreadsheet or a single piece of paper :P

15:23 <Regenaxer> very true

15:23 <Demosthenex> i'm the customer. i intend to migrate off freshbooks for invoicing. i need one table of hours, one table of customers, and i already have a latex->PDF generator.

15:24 <Demosthenex> i could make a CLI repl, and back it with sqlite.

15:24 <Demosthenex> i just keep hoping i'll find a TUI lib that'd let me do some fast tabbing data entry

15:25 <Regenaxer> I regard the browser simply as a system-independent terminal

15:25 <Regenaxer> so what?

15:25 <Regenaxer> I use even in Android apps a WebView

15:26 <Demosthenex> i've looked at options in python (npyscreen, even wrote a proof of concept address book), common lisp (croatoan is alright, no form support), perl (has ncurses form's lib, but... i'd have to write in line noise)... atm the most appealing thing is BASH using the dialog program :P

15:27 <Demosthenex> i fully recommend going the browser route if a gui is needed.

15:27 <Demosthenex> in this case (and in most cases for boring business software), a gui is not needed

15:27 <Regenaxer> For a simple application you can just use the REPL

15:27 <Demosthenex> zsh completion for a cli script was something i've already considered.

15:28 <Demosthenex> just stunned i can't have a basic data entry form with tabbing, simple autocompletion, to do CRUD operations.

15:28 <Regenaxer> I think nobody builds such a system cause it won't sell

15:29 <Regenaxer> Have you tried Emacs OrgMode?

15:29 <Demosthenex> used org since 2006. it's not suitable for reporting on tables.

15:30 <Demosthenex> emacs lisp has a widget library, i've considered throwing together a form in that :P

15:47 <Regenaxer> Making a good form framework is not trivial, especially if you want a seamless integration with the database

15:48 <Regenaxer> @lib/form.l in pil has almost 2000 lines

15:51 <Regenaxer> It took me about 5 years to get it really round, despite that I could re-use preceding versions

16:00 <beneroth> Demosthenex, if you consider bash and dialog, you should consider picolisp calling dialog. wrapping cli commands is (once you grokked it) very easy and comfortable in picolisp. and with picolisp you get a powerful database.

16:02 <beneroth> Regenaxer, I'm finally finished the C#/SQL project (update on existing thing) I'm working on. I added over 13k lines (mostly SQL code, doing a simple (request) in SQL needs many lines of code...)

16:02 <beneroth> (well I'm nearly finished)

16:02 <Regenaxer> oh! :)

16:02 <Regenaxer> tough guy

16:04 <Demosthenex> beneroth: i've seen other languages wrap dialog

16:04 <Demosthenex> seems like a cheat ;]

16:05 <Demosthenex> Regenaxer: i didn't say it needed full db integration, a forms engine with just basic widgets should be simple given there isn't much customization to be made.

16:05 <Regenaxer> ok

16:05 <Demosthenex> Regenaxer: and really i think my biggest frustration is: where did the existing code go?

16:06 <Demosthenex> there's a handful of ncurses apps now, but where did the tui code disappear to

16:06 <Regenaxer> hmm

16:07 <Demosthenex> oh , yea, funny enough there's several java libs i failed to mention. those "enterprise" java programmers still think tui is a thing

16:07 <Demosthenex> i just can't stomach java, even when wrapped by clojure

16:07 <Regenaxer> Me neither, but I use it a little as it is needed on Android

16:07 <Regenaxer> only interfacing though

16:08 <beneroth> Demosthenex, welcome to the bloat-hater self-help group...

16:08 <Regenaxer> hehe

16:08 <Demosthenex> ha

16:09 <Demosthenex> funny i work with IT people who parrot to me that emacs is bloated, too bad its a decent OS lacking an editor... then they turn an open an electron app on their GUI which eats 1 GB of ram to open a 30k file :P

16:10 <Demosthenex> oh hey, what's everyones opinion on web sites that insist on HUGE whitespace around everything so you can see two items per screen, and then they disable keyboard navigation? ;]

16:11 <Regenaxer> yeah

16:24 <beneroth> Demosthenex, I consider electron a security issue. In itself. and its based on NPM, NPM is a burning train wreck, fascinating to watch from afar.

16:26 <Demosthenex> s/NPM/javascript enabled web browsers/g

16:48 <Demosthenex> i find it abhorrent that npm/node are server side now :P

16:53 <Regenaxer> afp

19:14 <Regenaxer> ret