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<Algebr>
say you make an external like: external foo: ?foo:string -> ?bar:string -> int -> unit = "c_side" and c_side(value maybe_foo, value maybe_bar, value num). Will ordering get messed up if you call foo as: foo ~bar:"123" 10 ?
<def`>
Algebr: no
<Algebr>
so in that case foo on the C side will still be Val_none, bar will be a string and num wil get the 10?
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<Algebr>
err, sorry a bit confusing
<def`>
bar will be Val_some string
<Algebr>
right, meant to say that
<Algebr>
okay, order will be correct
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<orbitz>
companion_cube: sorry if I'm being forceful! It's your library so your choice, just doin gmy best to argue for a library I want to use ;)
<companion_cube>
nah, sure
<companion_cube>
I might put labels in it anyway
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<Algebr>
caml_alloc_array is a bit odd to me, why it uses char** instead of void**
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<companion_cube>
maybe it's an alignment issue?
<Algebr>
Is there no other way to make an array other than caml_alloc_array?
<reynir>
I'm not sure it's the reason, but you can't do pointer arithmetic on void pointers
<flux>
you can, though.
<flux>
they're like char pointers, except they can be casted automatically into anything
<Algebr>
im using this in a C++ context, not casted automatically
<Algebr>
my caml_callback3 is segfaulting =/ I suspect its the array
<flux>
fun, fun fun.
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<grayswandyr>
companion_cube: hi you spoke a couple of times about labels for containers... If you consider adding them, I'd advocate to do this very parcimoniously if possible. Merlin's functions already show the type and doc string for functions. This, coupled with sensible, *documented*, standards (such as: having a collection as last argument to work with |>), should already be enough I think
<companion_cube>
it's not really a question of documentation, tbh
<companion_cube>
it's to be able to write Foo.iter foo ~f:(very long multiline function)
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<companion_cube>
which is usually more readable than `Foo.iter (very long function) foo`
<grayswandyr>
in this case I'd advocate: let aux ... = ... in Foo.iter aux foo
<companion_cube>
I avoid writing this :/
<grayswandyr>
or foo |> Foo.iter (.........)
<companion_cube>
yeah, yeah
<companion_cube>
still a bit weird
<companion_cube>
I think labels are pretty nice for this
<grayswandyr>
I'm not fan of long multine functions between parentheses... I guess it's a matter of taste
<grayswandyr>
I like labels but it's sometimes too much I think
<companion_cube>
ah, I'm a big fan of those :)
<companion_cube>
I mean, something you do have to write a big fold, at least in my experience
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<flux>
flip :)
<flux>
merlin should just automatically insert appropriate 'flip' when you write code like Foo.iter aux @@ fun .. !
<flux>
'42
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<companion_cube>
erk
<Drup>
"merlin should just automatically insert .." please no :|
<companion_cube>
flip makes code unreadable, imho :/
<ia0>
I sometimes write Foo.iter begin\n ... \nend foo when the ... is under 3 lines
<ia0>
more precisely Foo.iter begin fun x ->\n ... \nend foo
<companion_cube>
I'm more thinking of functions of ≥ 10 lines
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<ia0>
Yes I see the use.
<ia0>
there should be a better example than Foo.iter which is in the wrong order from the start
<grayswandyr>
right
<ia0>
the current order mostly makes sense for partial application
<ia0>
which will be most probably written with an eta-expansion in OCaml
<ia0>
so you don't lose anything by having the right order
<flux>
one flip is IMO OK, just don't go overboard with point-free code
<flux>
maybe it could be called apply2nd for better effect.
<rgrinberg>
companion_cube: do you want to help out with hamt?
<companion_cube>
I'm just wondering what's up with oasis and it :)
<companion_cube>
(as I said, I compare it with my internal HashTrie in containers)
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<companion_cube>
hmmmm, not related, but did 4.04 change something in type inference?
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<rgrinberg>
companion_cube: I think i just need to do oasis setup and commit the generated crap
<companion_cube>
ah, cool
<companion_cube>
but you sound like hamt is half dead?
<companion_cube>
(do you use it?)
<rgrinberg>
I do. It's not half dead, there's just nothing to do afaik
<rgrinberg>
I suppose you could optimize it further, but it's always been good enough for me
<rgrinberg>
I'll fix this issue now :P
<companion_cube>
ok I see.
<Algebr>
wow, even the OCaml code base itself doesn't use caml_alloc_array
<Algebr>
and not a single real hit on github
<companion_cube>
damn, found a regression in 4.04
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<Algebr>
me calling caml_callback is causing a bus error, which I take it means some kind of data misalignment
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<Bluddy[m]>
companion_cube: :) containers is great, but I want the splintering to end!
<companion_cube>
ah, this... yeah :/
<Bluddy[m]>
at least let's retire Batteries, or something
<Drup>
define "retire" ?
<Bluddy[m]>
when given a random OCaml environment (as in, online), all you have is the stdlib. So you have to know that.
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<Bluddy[m]>
Then there's Jane Street's conventions for using their stuff -- and their libraries are good!
<Algebr>
deprecate == retire
<Bluddy[m]>
and then there's Batteries... enough already!
<Bluddy[m]>
How many times do I have to learn how to use basic functions?
<Algebr>
+1
<Drup>
Bluddy[m]: you didn't answer the question.
<companion_cube>
the issue is "let us retire batteries" doesn't specify who is "us"
<companion_cube>
some people use batteries
<Bluddy[m]>
retire = deprecate, yes
<Armael>
nobody forces you to use batteries
<companion_cube>
(some even maintain it...well, gasche does)
<Bluddy[m]>
as in, if you're using it, fine, but don't direct anyone to it anymore
<Bluddy[m]>
Armael: but some projects use it, and for those projects, you need to know the conventions
<Drup>
I'm curious how to propose to concretly do that
<Drup>
s/to/you/
<Bluddy[m]>
Easy, vote for Trump. He alone can solve it.
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<Drup>
I was serious. How do you intend to "making people stop advising <libraries that you consider should not be used anymore>"
<Algebr>
not recommend it to people, make tweets, write blog posts
<Algebr>
add it to readmes
<Algebr>
run in the streets yelling it
<Drup>
(not that I disagree with you on the base issue, it's just the peremptory decisiong of "retiring" a library that you do not maintain and never contributed ...
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<Bluddy[m]>
So if I can contribute to it I can "retire" it?
<Algebr>
is there anything on the OCaml side that can check if a value is properly aligned?
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<Bluddy[m]>
Honestly, my contribution is going to be to convince people to use Base
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<Bluddy[m]>
I think the only way to advance is to advocate something big enough, strong enough and standard enough (RWO) that it overwhelms everything else de facto
<Bluddy[m]>
Newbies learn Base/Core via RWO anyway
<companion_cube>
even if 80% of OCaml users switched to base, the stdlib shipped with the compiler would still not change...
<Bluddy[m]>
Yes, that is the sad truth
<Bluddy[m]>
But there might be a strong enough incentive at that point to make a version of the stdlib that is compatible with Base
<companion_cube>
clearly not if it breaks compat
<Bluddy[m]>
if we get to those numbers
<Bluddy[m]>
That's the only solution I see on the horizon
<Bluddy[m]>
Oh of course you don't break compatibility outright -- you have a command line switch, or other module names or something
<companion_cube>
still
<Bluddy[m]>
Bundle a small version of Base into the compiler or some such thing
<Bluddy[m]>
sorry companion_cube, I just don't see a path forward 'supporting' containers (and I mean supporting in the sense of recommending it to people etc) that doesn't lead to never ending fragmentation ie. the status quo
<grayswandyr>
anyway Base has not been released AFAIK?
<companion_cube>
I don't even know why I still discuss this stdlib thing, it draws all energy from me
<Bluddy[m]>
and we have to get past this ridiculous stage in my opinion
<Bluddy[m]>
yeah sorry
<companion_cube>
bah, containers is "use stdlib + additional stuff", not really fragmentation
<companion_cube>
I'm a stdlib user
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<Bluddy[m]>
i guess to some degree it is
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<companion_cube>
if I could merge my code into the stdlib, I would be very happy, of course
<Bluddy[m]>
that would be pretty great
<rgrinberg>
I dont know why. I've never had a problem using containers in every context i've wanted to
<rgrinberg>
same for base for that matter
<frefity>
i'm really new to OCaml and the fragmentation is definitley an issue for beginners
<Bluddy[m]>
example: open up hackerrank.com and start writing some OCaml code. Only the stdlib is available to you, and if you're used to containers, you'll get very frustrated
<rgrinberg>
it's a fucking programming contest site, cmon
<rgrinberg>
more realistic example please
<Bluddy[m]>
rgrinberg: I'm not talking about what you would consider 'realistic' examples perhaps, but about examples that exist nevertheless because the stdlib is the face of OCaml
<Algebr>
rgrinberg: that's very realistic
<grayswandyr>
everyone is aware of that, anyway.
<grayswandyr>
talking endlessly about this will not solve the problem
<companion_cube>
said differently, to get anything done in OCaml, you need something more than the stdlib
<companion_cube>
be it your own set of helpers, or an external stdlib
<thizanne>
I don't see how "not using batteries but core instead" will help when you're on hackerrank
<companion_cube>
I know I never write pure vanilla stdlib code
<companion_cube>
(even just to open a file)
<frefity>
What I would love to see as a beginner is a tool that sets up a basic environment with some sane default. From there one command can perform building, testing updating.merlin and _tags etc
<grayswandyr>
for a basic setup you have : opam install user-setup
<grayswandyr>
then we would need sthg like Rust's cargo sure
<companion_cube>
if things were to be done from scratch, sure
<grayswandyr>
then, perhaps Containers or Base will gain some ground
<companion_cube>
one stdlib, one build system…
<grayswandyr>
I used Batteries before. Now I use a mixture of Containers (for data structures) and D. Bünzli's Fmt/Cmdliner/Logs
<companion_cube>
I'm sad, CCFormat isn't enough? :P
<frefity>
I've been using Go for the last few years and the simplicity of the Go tool for getting most things done is great
<companion_cube>
(I know that it's subpar actually, but working on improving it a bit)
<companion_cube>
frefity: otoh go is not great for algorithmic and datastructures, because you cannot express most things that are possible with OCaml
<frefity>
I'm playing around with OCaml now in order to gain experience using a functional languages and a better type system
<companion_cube>
afaik the stdlib is pretty poor w.r.t containers, isn't it? it's good for networking
<grayswandyr>
well I came from PPRint and you and Drup convinced me to try CCFormat or Fmt. Then I liked Fmt's documentation...
<frefity>
companion_cube, I don't know how I've lived without algebraic data types :)
<grayswandyr>
Btw companion_cube: do you think more structures from Containers could be adapted to work natively with CCBatch?
<Bluddy[m]>
one thing to keep in mind is that if modular implicits ever arrive, big chunks of the stdlib will probably change. That could be an opportunity point for redesign.
<companion_cube>
ah, yeah, Bunzli knows how to write good documentation
<companion_cube>
grayswandyr: honestly, I don't use CCBatch (and it's going to be removed in the incoming 1.0 anyway), because Sequence does the same thing much better
<companion_cube>
(and in a more compositional way, too)
<grayswandyr>
companion_cube: ok
<grayswandyr>
good to know
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<companion_cube>
I use this a lot, and it works well
<grayswandyr>
right
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<companion_cube>
(with flambda it might even have 0 overhead compared to hand-writing stuff, thanks to inlining)
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<Bluddy[m]>
yeah it's great. Sequence should definitely be a part of the stdlib IMO. It's too basic not to have it in there
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<companion_cube>
well, there is a PR to add iterators, but it's stalled
<companion_cube>
and some people (who write nice libraries like Fmt) seem not to like those iterators
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<rgrinberg>
Yeah, that's a huge problem.
<rgrinberg>
Even if something is useful (like sequence or generator) it can easily be veto'd for these personal reasons
<rgrinberg>
even if it's still useful to 90% of the users out there
<companion_cube>
(the argument is "those iterators cannot be used for everything (i.e. non blocking IO) so they are useless"
<companion_cube>
)
<rgrinberg>
yes. it's infuriating :(
<rgrinberg>
I've never once wanted to use iterators with IO.
<companion_cube>
indeed. Then maybe I should write tests
<Bluddy[m]>
yeah it doesn't help that some characters in the ecosystem are very... difficult
<companion_cube>
rgrinberg: I do stuff like `CCIO.with_in "foo" (fun ic -> Sequence.IO.lines_of ic |> ...)`
<companion_cube>
from time to time
<rgrinberg>
Sure. I know you can do it, I just don't believe it's such a good practice.
<rgrinberg>
but your concrete example is harmless
<companion_cube>
well, as long as resources are properly handled, and iterators don't outlive the resource, it's fine
<companion_cube>
(otherwise I'd use something based on lwt, I think)
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<rgrinberg>
But anyway, these are all theoretical concerns to me. All languages that I'd consider alternatives to OCaml (rust, haskell, etc.) all have the same problem.
<rgrinberg>
You will not go very far without taking a dependency or two.
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<rgrinberg>
alas, I will not be competitive in programming contests
<companion_cube>
:D
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<gjaldon>
what's the conventional way of specifying the deps of your project in OCaml? Is it through `opam`? Also, is there an `opam new/init` command that sets up a conventional OCaml project for you?
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<companion_cube>
"it's complicated"
<companion_cube>
(well yes, the `opam` file is a good place to write dependencies; but you also have to tell your build system about them)
<companion_cube>
(and possibly merlin)
<gjaldon>
companion_cube: ahh so opam doesn't generate a basic Makefile for you?
<companion_cube>
sadly, not
<gjaldon>
seems simple enough to be implemented in opam. hmmm will try and suggest at the project repo
<gjaldon>
companion_cube: how do you typically start/setup an ocaml project?
<reynir>
I think opam is intentionally kept as a not-a-buildsystem
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<companion_cube>
gjaldon: I start with a _oasis file and a .merlin file :/
<companion_cube>
there is a tool to quickstart new projects though, I think
<gjaldon>
reynir: I don't think the suggestions above would make opam a buildsystem. was not trying to replace Make
<gjaldon>
companion_cube: merlin is the emacs/vim plugin, right? what's oasis for?
<maurer>
oasis ~ autotools for ocaml
<maurer>
it's not a perfect analogy, but it's about what it does
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<Leonidas>
oasis generates you all the files you need for building ocaml code with ocamlbuild (and recently also omake)
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<gjaldon>
ahh it seems I was looking for oasis
<gjaldon>
reynir: I think I get why you made your earlier comment now
<companion_cube>
maurer: or oasis~cmake, also
<maurer>
companion_cube: I mean, yes. autotools and cmake are the same class of tool
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<Leonidas>
oh, 4.04 was released. i guess the topic needs updatin'
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<MrMateus>
hey guys, shouldnt this go trough all the list and devide i/a? "let divlist = List.map (fun (s,i,a) -> (s,i/a,a)) sorted in" , it is only changing the first value of the list
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<companion_cube>
ahah, released 3h after I report a bug, which is "wontfix"
<companion_cube>
(well, s/bug/regression/)
<companion_cube>
ohhhh, `let exception e in …`
<companion_cube>
♥
<ia0>
is it a syntactic sugar for let module M = struct exception e end in ...[e <- M.e] ?
<ia0>
soon let type t = A | B of int in ...
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<Bluddy[m]>
companion_cube: I don't think there's a real issue there. My guess (since no further detail was provided): hongbo_zhang is used to a lowercase file scheme, so this one just 'feels' wrong, and he came up with a reason that it seems wrong to him
<gasche>
interested in editing your own favorite type-checker change? :-)
<companion_cube>
heh
<companion_cube>
oh, I didn't even noticed the workaround was supposed to be annotating
<companion_cube>
I just eta expanded
<companion_cube>
can I comment on `Set.map` by complaining about how hard it is to add stuff to the stdlib? 0:-)
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<gasche>
anyway, back to ghost mode
<gasche>
(I'm not sure whether I like wikis or markdown READMEs more; markdown readmes have pull requests which allow discussions and I like discussions)
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