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<Bahman>
Hi all!
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<magthe>
a question related to emacs: I'm using merlin to get warnings displayed in my emacs window, I get a lot of errors caused by it not finding packages (packages installed using opam, e.g. Core.Std), where should I look to find out how to configure it to find the available packages?
<ggole>
magthe: you set up a .merlin which indicates which packages to look for (among other things)
<ggole>
See the merlin docs for the details
<magthe>
ggole: thanks, then I know what to look for
<magthe>
ggole: haha, that was quick and easy... a "PKG core_extended" later and all my errors are gone :)
<ggole>
\o/
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<ely-se>
is there an OCaml derivative for the JVM with Java interop?
<MasseR>
Yes
<MasseR>
ocaml java
<ely-se>
nice
<MasseR>
And yeti
<MasseR>
(although that's not ocaml-derivative, but ml)
<companion_cube>
but ocamljava is not free, is it?
<ely-se>
lol
<ely-se>
the Java interop looks very ad-hoc
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<MasseR>
ely-se: Very. In my eyes it still seems very crude
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<ely-se>
I should really look into the whole .NET on Linux stuff
<ely-se>
IME it's a pain to use .NET if you don't use Visual Studio
<ely-se>
because things tend to be designed and documented around the assumption that you do
<ely-se>
but the set of existing libraries are nice (esp Noda Time) and F# is nice too
<companion_cube>
maybe .NET on linux is going to be easier, with the open-sourcing
<ely-se>
my F# build system on Linux tends to be fsharpc $(cat sources.txt), where sources.txt is the list of source files in the correct order :P
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<ely-se>
s/is/contains/
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<Bahman>
ely-se: Scala is pretty much OCaml with some specific JVM additions and restrictions.
<Bahman>
OCaml = ML
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<ely-se>
Scala is meh
<ely-se>
it's too complicated for me
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<Bahman>
True.
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<flux>
my understanding of scala is rather that it's the C++ of functional languages..
<MasseR>
ely-se: check out frege as well
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<ely-se>
I want a job which does not involve databases or user interfaces in any imaginable way.
<MasseR>
Hah, I don't user interfaces in any imaginable way :)
<MasseR>
Anymore
<MasseR>
On the previous job my boss said something like "You will never do frontend again" :)
<ely-se>
what do you do now?
<MasseR>
Systems integrations
<dmbaturin>
ely-se: I thought there is some IDE-agnostic build tool for .Net
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<ely-se>
I'd resign but there's no other software companies nearby
<MasseR>
ely-se: I know your pain :)
<dmbaturin>
I don't get why F# foundation doesn't distribute a tarball with binaries. .Net was supposed to be "compile once, run everywhere", or so I thought.
<dmbaturin>
Not everyone feels like building it from source.
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<ely-se>
I was looking for NXOR in Python for minutes until I realised it's written "=="
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<ely-se>
what also came to mind: bidirectional implication
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<whitequark>
hi
<whitequark>
hygiene is hard
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<companion_cube>
hey whitequark o/
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<def`>
hi, hygiene is hard :D?
<companion_cube>
I suppose it's hygiene in macros? :)
<companion_cube>
preprocessors, I mean
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<ely-se>
it's easy. take a shower and brush your teeth.
<whitequark>
typesystem rejects that
<ely-se>
I'm a BCPL programmer and I turn off the type system.
* whitequark
gives ely-se a stinkeye
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* ely-se
eats it
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<dmbaturin>
When taking untyped shower, you'd have to check too many assertions.
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<ely-se>
assert(water instanceof Water);
<ely-se>
Assertion failed. Appears it was H2SO4.
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<ely-se>
cactus-driven development is very much like fear-driven development, with the fear of being stabbed with a cactus if you fail to meet the deadlines
<ely-se>
wait, what is programming language theory?
<Drup>
whitequark: there are lots of bugs in ocamldoc since the last two minor versions
<Drup>
4.02.2 is completely broken, 4.02.3 is only slightly broken
<dmbaturin>
Drup: What event caused proliferation of bugs?
<Drup>
Complete change of the implementation for codoc
<ely-se>
"Programming language theory (PLT) is a branch of computer science that deals with the design, implementation, analysis, characterization, and classification of programming languages and their individual features."
<ely-se>
sounds quite exciting
<ely-se>
which reminds me, I should write a specification for my programming language
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<ely-se>
because it's current killer feature is being 100% undocumented
<flux>
killer as in it kills people trying to use it with sharp edges?
<ely-se>
yes, like C#
<dmbaturin>
ely-se: What's the killer feature and where's the language?
<ely-se>
the killer feature is it being 100% undocumented and its implementation is on github
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<flux>
oh yeah, well I'll write a language with 10% documentation that's completely misleading, that's gotta be worse
<ely-se>
but hello world works :3
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<flux>
I just yesterday evening started a new ocaml project! woohoo, new directory!
<flux>
so far it allows me to add (and move! and remove) points to the screen and once there are exactly four points, it evaluates a perspective transform for those four points
<flux>
when it grows big I hope to measure distances from photos given reference points.
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<dmbaturin>
flux: Distances between objects in photos?
<flux>
like I have a picture of a room and with known wall lengths
<flux>
then I can measure how far furniture is from given walls
<flux>
perhaps at some point it can also to 3d projections involving measurements of height
<flux>
this all of course requires there is no lens distortion..
<whitequark>
are we talking about haskell now?
<flux>
I don't think so..
<ely-se>
you could also just go there and take a tape measure with you!
<flux>
ely-se, well, that's possible, but in fact the idea comes from the fact that I have photos of a place I've never been to ;)
<flux>
and I wish to create a 3d model of it
<whitequark>
flux: "lens distortion"
<whitequark>
*cough*
<dmbaturin>
Nobody remembers what "monad" meant before it acquired its current meaning in haskell. Soon everyone will forget what lens meant before.
<ely-se>
flux: now's your chance!
<flux>
whitequark, well, I mean lines are straight in the middle of the picture, but not so when you have a fisheye lense and measure near the edges
<whitequark>
yes, I know.
<flux>
whitequark, so your point was?-)
<ely-se>
extract the lens properties from EXIF data
<flux>
that's certainly something to look at, yes
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<ely-se>
oh, the king is riding through the city today in a coach. I hope something goes wrong, like one of the horses getting out of control or the coach breaking down
<ely-se>
that'd be funny
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<whitequark>
ppx_deriving now has hygiene
<reynir>
That's a cool project, flux
<flux>
too bad I had to turn my brains off and basically apply maxima on the projection matrices to boot it up.. :-)
<flux>
also in future exporting to 3d applications may turn out to be annoying, as I would like to use STEP for it.
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<whitequark>
you want NURBS?
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<flux>
no :). the first step would probably be using points, I hope STEP has them :).
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<magthe>
I'm writing a server for a little protocol based on C enums... is there some convenient way of defining a type t and automatically getting int_to_t: int -> t) and (t_to_int: t -> int)?
<magthe>
whitequark: thanks, and I see it's available via opam too :)
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<magthe>
hmm, I can't seem to get the examples for ppx_deriving working, utop complains: Error: Parse error: [str_item] or ";;" expected (in [top_phrase])
<def`>
no camlp4 if you want ppx
<magthe>
def`: does that mean it doesn't play nice with Core?
<whitequark>
you don't have to use ppx to use core
<whitequark>
er, to use camlp4
<def`>
and if you want core extensions, there should
<def`>
be a ppx version
<whitequark>
did they release it yet?
<whitequark>
I don't think ppx type_conv is public
<magthe>
whitequark: but I have to use camlp4 to use Core?
<def`>
i don't know :)
<def`>
ok, there WILL be
<whitequark>
magthe: no
<whitequark>
I typoed
<whitequark>
"you don't have to use camlp4 to use Core"
<def`>
+1
<magthe>
whitequark: do I get the nice `with sexp` without camlp4?
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
(that's what type_conv is)
<whitequark>
you can, however, use [@@deriving show] for debug printing
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<magthe>
hmm, so I have to choose, either [@@deriving foo] or `with sexp`? that's a little disappointing
<whitequark>
well, blame Core for using camlp4 ;p
<companion_cube>
:>
<whitequark>
the next version of Core will in fact use ppx_deriving
<magthe>
well, there's ppx_meta_conv that seems to provide sexp decoder/encoder
<magthe>
I wonder how long I'll have to wait for next version of Core then...
<whitequark>
do you actually need sexp for something? you'd be the first one I know
<companion_cube>
sexp are arguably more readable than json?
* adrien
uses sexp
* adrien
needs to move to companion_cube's sexp
<companion_cube>
it's only been 1 year
<magthe>
whitequark: I wanted something easy to use in both OCaml and C
<whitequark>
sexp is easy to use in C??
<adrien>
companion_cube: my TODO list has items that have been waiting for 5 years easily
<magthe>
whitequark: it's easier than JSON
<flux>
I think json is nice in that it's easier to make accidentally future-proof than sexp :)
<magthe>
and I *really* don't want to add another enum-based protocol
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<flux>
magthe, I guess protobuf and piqi are out of question then..
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<flux>
though I've used sexp before for ocaml--c++ interop. twas nice, with some c++ classes.
<oriba>
what library is there for image manipulation, that can be recommended?
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<whitequark>
*not* camlimages
<flux>
I wonder if it would have been as nice with json, though. with c++ it was something like if (match(json, list(list(xxx), string(yyy))) { .. }
<magthe>
flux: I'll have a look, but I guess they are
<oriba>
whitequark: yes, thats why I ask here... I just tried camlimages again, and - as before - became demotivated from the chaos...
<whitequark>
I haven't even tried to use the API of camlimages and I am already demotivated
<oriba>
hehe
<oriba>
which other libs are there?
<flux>
oriba, please share if you find a motivating alternative :-)
<oriba>
just simple things at the moment... maybe I should use jpeg-lib directly...
<oriba>
flux: aha, ok, maybe thats helping. Long ago I had written jpeglib-stuff by myself, but only grabbing pic-size. Now I need more functionality. So ocaml-jpeg maybe is helpful. thanks for the link
<whitequark>
hum, I've read through ppx_meta_conv and surprisingly I can endorse it
<flux>
now I'm looking at its mli and I can't fathom why there is the 'format type returned from external functions, apparently it is a polymorphic type, so don't touch it..
<flux>
oriba, if you want to add a similarly easy support for saving jpegs, go right ahead ;)
<flux>
I guess it should return .. 'rgb pixel_format instead
<whitequark>
it doesn't even use the usual extremely monadic style
<oriba>
hmhh, oasis is needed... for building it, the list of dependencies is so extremely ong.. why is there so much bloat all around thw world? :(
<whitequark>
ppx_meta_conv?
<whitequark>
or camlimages?
<oriba>
?
<whitequark>
what needs oasis?
<whitequark>
ppx_meta_conv uses omake
<oriba>
the jpeg-lib
<whitequark>
oh sorry I mixed a bunch of things up
<whitequark>
nevermind what I siad
<oriba>
"oasis setup"...
<flux>
oriba, oh, I suppose I should make an actual release with the oasis-generated files..
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<oriba>
why is OcamlMakefile, obuild, jenga OMake mentioned?
<oriba>
and why not oasis?
<whitequark>
if you ask me: because oasis shall burn
<whitequark>
but that's probably not why gasche omitted it
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<oriba>
9 lines for Makefile :) and no need to read the ocamlbuild-tutorial, no need to think about _tags and such stuff. Just Makefile + OCamlMakefile. ready :-)
<oriba>
(without installation so far, but for my local needs its ok)
<whitequark>
you could just revert that commit...
<oriba>
where is your ocamlbuild-solution?
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<whitequark>
revert 417a4e1?
<oriba>
aha, ok... needs some handwork to compile the stuff (ocamlbuild-calls by hand, no makefile for it). But thats nice too.