ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<artagnon> whitequark: Someone broke linker.ml.
<whitequark> they did?
<artagnon> check-lit is failing on linker.ml for me.
<artagnon> Syntax error too.
<artagnon> Also, in core: FAILED: builder/builder/dbg #1
<artagnon> (That's been there for a while though)
<whitequark> dbg should have been fixed
<whitequark> hmm
<whitequark> can you also send a patch for linker?
<artagnon> Sure.
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<artagnon> Also, I noticed that I'm writing good commit messages for nothing!
<artagnon> 1. arc diff doesn't upload updated commit messages.
<artagnon> 2. You seem to have dropped the whole commit message for the previous commit.
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<artagnon> whitequark: I think you're looking at a slightly outdated version.
<artagnon> The change that broke it is ~6 hrs old.
<artagnon> Actually Rafael might have intentionally left it this way (?)
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<artagnon> And might have other plans?
<whitequark> whaaaat
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> sigh
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<whitequark> fixed in trunk
<artagnon> Okay, the git mirror is off by a few hours, I think.
<whitequark> you can use llvm.org/git
<artagnon> Okay, so do you have some pending tasks I can pick up?
<whitequark> there are a few interfaces without OCaml bindings. Object, for example
<whitequark> also you could look at improving ExecutionEngine bindings otherwise, the C interface is fairly outdated
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<artagnon> Hm, what about GC support?
<whitequark> what about it?
<artagnon> setgc seems to be a no-op.
<whitequark> yeah, Phil Reames is doing some work on GC support in LLVM overall
<arcanine69> what is ocaml good for
<artagnon> Yeah, I read a couple of his blog posts about precise gc support.
<artagnon> arcanine69: In short, compilers.
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<arcanine69> ocaml is good at writing compilers?
<arcanine69> why not C
<whitequark> why would anyone want to use C?
<whitequark> artagnon: you could coordinate with him
<whitequark> but working without any contact is probably not the right thing for now
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<artagnon> Oh, I see. I'm afraid I still have much to learn.
<artagnon> I wish these people were accessible on an IRC channel like this one.
<artagnon> Anyway, I'll get to work on my compiler. Interesting problems should crop up.
<whitequark> indeed
<artagnon> Is there a way to get the name of an llvalue?
<artagnon> My current code passes around function objects, but we need strings now.
<whitequark> there's a function to do that
<artagnon> Ah, value_name
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<struktured> can someone explain to me why this failed? https://github.com/ocaml/opam-repository/pull/3279 . I see some url lookup errors but no idea how that is related to my project
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<artagnon> In ctypes, how do I check if a pointer is null?
<artagnon> "null" seems to be of the wrong type.
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<artagnon> Found it: ptr_opt
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<mcc> Hi... I saw ocaml's type inferer do something REALLY weird today, and I'm trying to understand if this was really right and how I could prevent this in future.
<mcc> So here's two versions of a file. Wrong: http://pastie.org/9796893 Right: http://pastie.org/9796889 . The difference is the replacement of the function "identity" (1 curried argument) in the wrong file with "kancel" (2 curried arguments) in the right file.
<mcc> if i compile the wrong file, i get: http://pastie.org/9796895
<mcc> I am interpreting this error, etc, to mean that the appearance of "identity", and this being passed to "makeLet" early in the let rec = and and and block, caused the inferer to believe that makeLet's first argument was of type 'a->'a
<mcc> and continued believing this *even when* i gave it *explicit* type instructions saying 'no, this is of type value->value->value'.
<struktured> mcc: no syntax highlighting? :( github gists has it if you specify the file exxtension in the combo box
<mcc> i.e. it was like "well i inferred this type, so the type you specified must be wrong". it seems like if i specify something exact then that should take precedence
<mcc> struktured: i don't think i know how to use github gists? that would require me to be using git surely?
<struktured> mcc: nope, its just like pastebin
<mcc> hm
<struktured> mcc: anyhow it would help to have a really simple example with same "odd' behavior
<mcc> struktured: yes, that makes sense. i'll see what i can do.
<struktured> mcc: not claiming I'll understand this code but..what is the type of Value.t ?
<arcanine69> whitequark: because C gives you much more control over the hardware
<struktured> mcc: er I mean Value.value I think
<mcc> Value.value is a big tagged union with like eight things in it
<arcanine69> what is ocaml good for?
<arcanine69> why do people use it.
<struktured> mcc: well for starters, it doesnt seem to have anything to do with the polymorphism. its because the number of args isnt right, or your missing a parentice
<mcc> struktured: that sounds right
<mcc> struktured: comparable situations on stack overflow, someone had a small mysterious syntax error somewhere else
<mcc> arcanine: complex operations on structured data with high reliability
<mcc> arcanine: particularly good for language compilers and interpreters
<struktured> mcc: in first case, it is a three arg thingy, value->value->value. in the other case its ('a->'b) -> 'a -> 'b, which is basically 4 args, although two are a closed in parens
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<mcc> it's meant to be, here's a value and a transformer on the value.
<struktured> the error is really saying that 'a -> 'a -> 'a does not equal ('a->'a) -> 'a -> 'a I think
<mcc> hm
<struktured> mcc: also, how is identiy a valid argument to makeLet? https://gist.github.com/mcclure/9ab791c8506ea55072ef#file-gistfile1-ml-L36
<mcc> it's not. identity is a bug.
<mcc> the problem i am perceiving is that i had a bug, i was passing identify in as an argument where that is not appropriate. but i had a lot of trouble finding the bug because rather than giving me the error at the correct point (passing in identity) it gave it to me at an unhelpful point (defining the types of the arguments to makeLet)
<arcanine69> why is ocaml good? can anyone tell me w hat its used for?
<struktured> mcc: yeah I hear ya. sometimes the line it reports isn't the line you need to fix. I find that annotating a bunch of stuff with types helps to debug those issues.
<arcanine69> id rather go with C
<arcanine69> thats not convincing at all
<mcc> arcanine69: okay, you should use C then if it is what you prefer
<mcc> struktured: so here is my "minimal example": https://gist.github.com/mcclure/ca35bba1a961ee5bc2e6
<struktured> arcanine69: but if you're interested in ocaml at all, I suggest trying to use it a bit
<arcanine69> why is it better than c thoguh
<arcanine69> like whats the difference
<mcc> struktured: What's confusing me-- "decorate with types until you see the problem" is exactly what i was trying to do. But then it just placed an error on my type decorations.
<mcc> struktured: how would i go about understanding, when program #2 fails, *why* it thinks "a" should be something other than what it is?
<struktured> mcc: I spotted your error just by noting that makeLet was the cause and finding references to it. you need to remember that invocations of a function "coerce" that function's signature to some degree, and thus may be root cause the type error
<struktured> arcanine69: writing code faster is a big one for me. easier to maintain, higher level of abstraction, blah blah
<arcanine69> i dont like abstraction
<mcc> Here's I guess more explanation-- https://gist.github.com/mcclure/ca35bba1a961ee5bc2e6
<mcc> struktured: ok. but there is not some way to just flat out insist "no, really, this function has this type"?
<mcc> struktured: like if i'd put the type on the function rather than the arguments, would you expect a different outcome?
<mcc> ooo
<struktured> struktured: I think if you rationalize from the interpreters point of view. it starts with first observatoin of makeLet, which coerces the type right there. then it sees your actual definition, but its "too late" then
<struktured> *mcc
<mcc> also something i guess i just noticed is if i reorder makeLet before tableBlank, it suddenly trusts the types in the makeLet body more than the ones in the tableBlank body...
<mcc> ok
<mcc> so putting makeLet first would be a sensible way to get the type checker to do what i want?
<struktured> mcc: yeah, also it wouldn't hurt if the compiler emitted better error, perhaps it could be added to this list: https://ocaml.org/meetings/ocaml/2014/ocaml2014_9.pdf
<mcc> struktured: ok, this is all very helpful. if i was going to submit it to the list, who would i contact about that?
<struktured> mcc: hmm I saw this elsewhere like reddit or something, but can't find it now
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<mcc> ok. i'll work it out later. headed to dinner, thank you for the help!
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<struktured> ah sweet victory. TIL that Deferred.all is not iterative but actually parallel, or maybe just interuptable. either way, not good when you are sharing resources between deferreds. I used fold + bind instead
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<artagnon> core_kernel install via opam fails on linux.
<artagnon> Anyone else having the issue?
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<artagnon> stderr: http://pastie.org/9797541
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<hugomg> what version of core_kernel are you talking about? I have 112.01.00 installed just fine.
<artagnon> 112.06.00
<artagnon> I suspect it has something to do with caml4p and the system compiler.
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<hugomg> that might have something to do with it. anyway, whats the commadnd to create a fresh opam switch again? Id liike to test this without clobbering my current 4.02 switch
<artagnon> opam switch system, I think.
<artagnon> Just opam switch -- it'll list options.
<hugomg> I mean, is there a way to create a separate switch for a project, similar to how you make a sandbox in cabal?
<artagnon> Oh, I have no idea. Wait, let me switch 4.02.1 and try again.
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<Leonidas> no, I don't think opam does sandboxes
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<hugomg> is there a way to do sandboxes at all then :/
<artagnon> Same issue.
<artagnon> The package seems to be broken > whitequark
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<whitequark> jpdeplaix maintains the package
<whitequark> if you're talking about llvm
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<artagnon> I'm talking about the core_kernel package.
<artagnon> I
<artagnon> I'll raise an issue on gh for now.
<whitequark> um
<whitequark> why are you talking to *me* about core_kernel
<whitequark> I avoid it like plague
<artagnon> Oh :\
<artagnon> I thought you'd be in the loop about maintaining it.
<artagnon> Do you use JaneStreet's library then?
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<whitequark> no
<Leonidas> All time Core saves is spent getting it to even build at all :-(
<artagnon> whitequark: I sent you a diff.
<artagnon> After much thought, that's what I came up with.
<artagnon> ErlangGC.cpp calls GCRegistry::Add<>, but I'm afraid it's not getting linked in.
<artagnon> Which is why set_gc(Some "erlang") f complains.
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<whitequark> no, why are you touching GC at all?
<whitequark> I told you not to.
<whitequark> it's currently not very useful and it will change radically in near future
<whitequark> if you want to do something with it, please write Philip
<whitequark> regarding not being linked in, yes, that's very likely
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<artagnon> :(
<artagnon> Is Philip taking care of OCaml bindings as well?
<whitequark> no
<artagnon> Then what's the problem with this change?
<whitequark> what exactly do you want to do with GC?
<artagnon> I want to see what it can do :)
<whitequark> use llc to emit bitcode, put gc "xxx" manually where you want it in the LLVM assembly
<whitequark> that's the *fast* way to do it
<artagnon> I have to emit lots of it if I want to plug in my own gc, no?
<artagnon> I do emit gc "xxx" from my program successfully
<whitequark> um, what?
<whitequark> you can only implement a GC plugin in C++
<artagnon> Yes, I know.
<artagnon> I currently have something.
<artagnon> I want to see an existing one work first, so I can fix mine.
<artagnon> I want to start with shadow-stack.
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<whitequark> ok
<whitequark> so, see which library is shadow stack linked into, and link that.
<artagnon> codegen, iiuc.
<artagnon> Hence that patch.
<artagnon> I'm pushing the LLVM lib "codegen" into the OCaml lib "llvm".
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<artagnon> How do I make sure that it's actually linked? Do I have to force a rebuild
<whitequark> no, why are you putting codegen there? it's a library wrapping the LLVM core
<Leonidas> hugomg: that's interesting. Didn't know you can alias compilers. Does that work?
<artagnon> Because it has the function set_gc.
<whitequark> if you link in anything that depends on codegen, e.g. native, or jit, it will already get linked in
<whitequark> huh?
<whitequark> set_gc works on IR.
<hugomg> i think it should. still compiling the compiler though
<artagnon> Yeah, I know. But for it to set an existing gc, it needs to be linked to codegen.
<artagnon> Okay, so native or jit.
* artagnon tries that
<Leonidas> hugomg: oh, it it compiles a new compiler, that sounds very much like it is working
<Leonidas> gotta remember that trick
<whitequark> artagnon: basically linking in any backend will work.
<artagnon> What are the valid packages I can give to ocamlfind?
<Leonidas> ocamlfind list?
<hugomg> artagnon: core_kernel 112.06.00 installed just fine on a fresh switch here. weird that you had problems with it
<artagnon> Leonidas: Ah, thanks.
<artagnon> hugomg: Hm.
<artagnon> Linux?
<hugomg> yes, debian
<Leonidas> probably different system, that explains it
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<artagnon> whitequark: That didn't fix the problem.
<artagnon> Shall I atleast write tests for c/cpp?
<Leonidas> core_kernel 112.06.00 works on arch amd64 as well
<artagnon> That' strange. Let me try again.
<whitequark> artagnon: not really, no, the problem is in your code
<whitequark> (most likely)
<artagnon> What problem? I set_gc(...) and jit it as usual.
<whitequark> you'll have to check whether the initialization function is linked in and called. objdump and gdb are your friends
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<artagnon> whitequark: Thanks for the tip! I found out what happened:
<artagnon> lli and llc both do #include "llvm/CodeGen/LinkAllCodegenComponents.h" explicitly.
<artagnon> That's the only way to get access to the GCs.
<artagnon> How do I expose it via OCaml now?
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<artagnon> A new llvm.codegen module?
<dch> hi, new ocamler here. I work on FreeBSD mainly and looks like I need https://github.com/janestreet/core/pull/21/ to get bin_prot (as a dep for core_extended) installed. I have *no* idea how to tell opam to use this, and blindly cloning the repo and running gmake fails.
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<Leonidas> dch: you can probably pin it in opam
<Leonidas> but are you sure it is not already merged? That PR was more than a year ago and many new Core releases were made
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<dch> Leonidas: oops yes that is merged, but I still have issues. let me get a log
<dch> also, wrong repo...
<Leonidas> dch: oh, then you can pin it to tell OPAM to use a different repo
<Leonidas> (namely, the repo where it is fixed already)
<dch> ok, I will read up on pinning & see how I get on — thanks!
<whitequark> artagnon: hm
<whitequark> yes, I think so
<Leonidas> or as a quick fix, you could probably just put a gcc symlink that points to your desired compiler in the path
<dch> FWIW I get a bit further now, git cloned repo with patch, gmake fails with missing deps, so I opam install those, then run gmake again and get https://dpaste.de/SOM4 which looks maybe sensible
<dch> clang != gcc, not sure how that would work on FreeBSD. But as a fallback I can always install a gcc I suppose.
<dch> thanks for the tips Leonidas, bbl with hopefully good news
<Leonidas> dch: yes, but mkdir foo && ln -s $(which clang) foo/gcc && export PATH=$(pwd)/foo:$PATH could do the trick
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<Leonidas> quite hackish and will break on the next update, though.
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<artagnon> whitequark: I'm struggling to structure it properly.
<artagnon> codegen_ocaml.c needs to somehow include a C++ header, right?
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<whitequark> I'm not really sure if we want to do this in upstream.
<artagnon> I'm adding something to llvm-c
<artagnon> Oh.
<whitequark> can you add this stub locally in your project?
<whitequark> the default GCs are not exactly useful
<artagnon> shadow-stack can certainly be useful, I think.
<whitequark> it's too slow
<artagnon> It's exposed via the C++ bindings; why should OCaml suffer?
<artagnon> I agree that it's slow.
<artagnon> ... but one big usecase of LLVM is to build toy compilers like mine.
<artagnon> Life would be much easier if this were an initialization function instead of a global variable in a header.
<whitequark> but there *is* an initialization function
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<whitequark> include/llvm/CodeGen/GCs.h
<artagnon> There are many initialization functions.
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<artagnon> In the future, I see better default GCs.
<whitequark> ok, I agree
<artagnon> Thanks, I should have something good in a bit.
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<Tekk_> Is there some sort of magic you need done in order to use opam modules from the repl? if I load a module from the repl then unless it's a core module I get that it's unbound but if I compile then it's fine.
<Tekk_> I do use ocamlfind for compilation, but there doesn't seem to be an argument to use ocamlfind with a repl
<Tekk_> I've run the init.sh and opam config env
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<whitequark> enter #use "topfind";; in the REPL
<whitequark> then, #require "package";;
<Tekk_> ah, alright
<Tekk_> thanks whitequark
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<seangrove> Is Opam down right now? I'm getting a 403 on opam.ocaml.org/1.1
<Leonidas> maybe its way of saying "spend time with your family" ;-)
<whitequark> that's a cruel suggestion.
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* Leonidas spent his time with watching movies, writing caml and eating fastfood.
<Leonidas> but opam worked an hour ago ir so
<Leonidas> *or
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