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<parcs_>
i think GCC has a very clean codebase
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<pippijn>
opam switch --no-switch doesn't work?
<pippijn>
$ opam switch show
<pippijn>
system
<pippijn>
$ opam switch --no-switch 4.01.0+PIC
<pippijn>
$ opam switch show
<pippijn>
4.01.0+PIC
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<seliopou>
I have a question about Writer.flushed. Am I correct in concluding that there is no guarantee that it will in no way indicate when the underlying socket has experienced an error?
<seliopou>
erm... get rid of one of the negatives in that question
<seliopou>
The comment says that if a prior write fails, then the deferred will never become determined
<seliopou>
but if all writes succeed and the socket errors while waiting for the flush, then the deferred will also never become determined.
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<Drup>
what is "Writer" ?
<mbac>
seliopou, flushed will evaluate to determined if bytes written equals bytes asked to write, regardless of whether an error event occurred later
<seliopou>
sorry, i'm taling about the Writer module in async_unix
<seliopou>
Drup: ^
<seliopou>
mbac: in an error case, the bytes written will not equal bytes received
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<seliopou>
mbac: suppose you perform a write, and the library successfully copies the bytes into its buffer (no error has occurred)
<mbac>
you said if it errors after all of the writes succeed, though
<seliopou>
then you immediately block on lfushed
<seliopou>
meaning that prior write did not result in an exception being raised to the user
<seliopou>
i'm starting to conclude that in order to do proper error handling this interface requires every flushed call to be a a choice between the flushed deferred and the consumer_left deferred
<seliopou>
which is odd to say the least
<mbac>
flushed will only be determined when all pending write(2) calls have completed. that seems sufficient to me.
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<mbac>
maybe you're interested in the writer's Monitor.t?
<seliopou>
the real issue is that I'm using Typed_tcp from the async_extra package
<seliopou>
that manages the monitor itself
<seliopou>
so i'm iterating over the events it produces
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<seliopou>
and when a client disconnects for whatever reason, it produces a `Disconnect(Client_id.t, exn) event
<seliopou>
and leaves the flushed calls blocked
<seliopou>
which basically means that you can't really write Typed_tcp applications as event loops
<seliopou>
You can see the Transport module above that that's an argument to the Typed_Tcp functor
<mbac>
the interface certainly implies that if send is determined `Sent time, that your write was flushed
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<seliopou>
mbac: the issue is when the send fails
<seliopou>
send writes and the flushes. the underlying implementation checks for exceptions in the write and then blocks on the flush
<seliopou>
and then an error happens and the server deadlocks
<natrium1970>
Has there been any success in making it possible to deploy programs written in OCaml as Android apps for “regular” users?
<Drup>
there are two ways : the native way (cross compile and all that), some people have done it, it works
<natrium1970>
I ask because I like OCaml for my backend, but I don’t know if it’s feasible for something I’d like to make into an app. I’ve played with Scala, but I’m it is a nightmare after learning OCaml.
<Drup>
and the cheating way : html5+js_of_ocaml
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<natrium1970>
Do you have any links or search terms I might look for? On Google search, what I’m finding is how to install OCaml itself on Android (I think).
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<Drup>
for the cross compilation, I don't really know, I just remember people saying it works
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<smondet>
Drup: html5+js_of_ocaml, that would not be cheating, it's the future™ :) => can make it work on iOS, FirefoxOS, blackberry & so on
<Drup>
smondet: ahah, let's say it's avoiding the problem (by opening a completely different can of worms)
<Drup>
(and good luck for making it work in various browsers withtout another layer like phonegap)
<natrium1970>
I know it’s #ocaml, but are there any other viable functional languages if I can’t get OCaml and Android to play nice? (Not sure where else to ask.)
<Drup>
you can get them to play nice
* natrium1970
makes note: “That friendly Drup promised it would work.”
<Drup>
(and if you are horrified by scala, I'm not sure what to advice you :p)
<natrium1970>
Yes, I’m horrified by Scala. I took our adv. programming languages / type theory course, and we used OCaml. Things that are easy in OCaml are difficult in Scala.
<natrium1970>
I’ve been trying really, really hard to like the language. It isn’t working.
<Armael>
:D
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<smondet>
F# is kind-of half-way between scala and ocaml, weak type system (it has `null`) but less messy than scala
<natrium1970>
I was amazing in my class by OCaml because once my program got past the type checking, it just worked.
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<def`>
natrium1970: depends on what you want to do, if you need to use Java API (especially gui), you probably don't want to use ocaml
<natrium1970>
F# has the lock in to .NET (or uh, Mono), although I know Xamarin has a complex mechanism to get it to work on iPhone. Is there a better channel to discuss this in general? I don’t want to bother people with my somewhat off-topic question.
<natrium1970>
I want the simplicity of OCaml with the ability to write GUI apps for the computer and Android/iOS apps. This seems to be asking the impossible.
<Drup>
smondet: according to th thread in the ML, it woudln't work
<natrium1970>
What wouldn’t work?
<Drup>
"In practice, the problem is that OCaml-Java emits classes for Java 1.7 while (to the best of my knowledge) Android only accepts Java 1.6 classes."
<adrien>
is the second part of that sentence up-to-date?
<Drup>
seems like a better bet to me
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<def`>
to get decent performance with first-class functions, you probably need functional java features (methodhandle, require 1.7, or even dynamikeinvoke, require 1.8)… dalvik is stuck in the past.
<def`>
an old version of ocamljava was able to generate 1.6 classes if I remember well, but I wouldn't recommend to go this way :P
<natrium1970>
I worry about how functional languages in general are handled in JVMs because a lot of things that cheap or zero cost when compiling to native code seem like they would be costly on a JVM and probably .NET, too.
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<def`>
natrium1970: support from jvm has greatly improved in latest versions, but this has not made its way to android vm (… and might never do)
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<natrium1970>
I was wondering how well the no-side-effects and immutable data structures are optimized in VMs. I already ready that tail calls are a problem in JVM.
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<Drup>
aren't tail calls optimized before even being at the JVM point ?
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<def`>
Drup: "optimized"… it's more expensive to introduce trampoline than to rely on a proper handling by the VM
<Drup>
right
<natrium1970>
Some tail calls are optimized, but I don’t know if they are use zero stack space. Also, mutual recursion isn’t optimized from what I read.
<natrium1970>
.NET has tailcalls. :-|
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<ousado>
isn't it possible to rewrite tail calls to loops in the general case?
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<ousado>
AFAIK that's what ATS does, at least
<mrvn>
everything can be rewritten to loop
<mrvn>
the natural conversion would be goto though
<natrium1970>
But goto isn’t available outside of the current method on the JVM.
<def`>
ousado: tail-rec yes, tail-call… not in the general case
<def`>
(AFAIK, I might be wrong of course :))
<Drup>
def`: oh right, I had tail-rec in mind
<ousado>
yeah, I tend to be sloppy when it comes to tail recursion
<mrvn>
you can have tail recursion bouncing between 2 function back and forth.
<natrium1970>
That’s when the limitations of the JVM come in.
<mrvn>
then you can combine the 2 fuinctions into one with gotos between them.
<natrium1970>
But the JVM imposes a limit on the size of a single method. I’m not sure if that’s a problem in the usual case.
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<def`>
ousado: Drup: with tail-rec, it works because you can rewrite code at definition site
<def`>
to provide general tail-call support, you have to handle first-class functions
<ousado>
hmmm
<ousado>
that's why ocaml has that calling convention, I read
<ousado>
how does the interpreter handle that?
<def`>
well it's natural for the interpreter to handle that
<def`>
the interpreter either use a big switch jumping from instruction to instruction, or rewrite bytecode to be threaded (directly pointing to the address to jump to)
<def`>
so C-stack is not involved AFAICT
<ousado>
of course
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<ousado>
I'm thinking about how to deal with tail calls in haxe (especially the C target)
<Drup>
you can look at how llvm does it
<Drup>
they have something to handle tail calls
<def`>
ousado: you are developing on haxe ?
<ousado>
just working on the C target (for now)
<def`>
ok
<ousado>
so I'm not a core-compiler dev
<natrium1970>
Is Haxe anything like OCaml?
<ousado>
yes
<natrium1970>
I hadn’t heard of it before, and I just pulled up some info about it.
<ousado>
it has almost all that's required to be a real good language, but the stdlib is lacking and yeah, tail calls
<natrium1970>
And it runs on Android and iOS?
<ousado>
wherever any of the target languages run so totally, yes
<natrium1970>
That sounds too good to be true.
<ousado>
indeed
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<natrium1970>
What’s the downside then?
<ousado>
"stdlib is lacking and yeah, tail calls"
<Drup>
small community I would guess, even smaller than ocaml ?
<ousado>
it has the best metaprogramming infrastructure under the sun, to phrase it modestly
<ousado>
;P
<Drup>
better than lisp ? :D
<ousado>
sure
<natrium1970>
But #ocaml is the most helpful channel I’ve been on in a while. You people are very friendly and informative.
<mrvn>
That's because ocaml is/has "fun"
<ousado>
Drup: because types, you know
<natrium1970>
This will sound superficial, but I have problems with LISPy languages because my eyes have difficulty following the parentheses.
<Drup>
natrium1970: you're not the only one.
<natrium1970>
Parentheses in particuar are bad, especially in certain fonts. Braces or braces are less so.
<mrvn>
{{{{{+ {* 1 2}}}}}}
<ousado>
oh and re community size, it's less about the size than about what most of the community does
<ousado>
which is games
<mrvn>
natrium1970: doesn't realy improve things
<natrium1970>
It depends somewhat on the font characteristics. I must say that your example isn’t too horrible in Monaco (monospaced) but is cryptic in the non-monospaced font on my IRC app.
<Drup>
you can do worse
<Drup>
<<<<<+ <* 1 2>>>>>>
<mrvn>
natrium1970: the problem is counting and matching them
<Drup>
(yay rust)
<natrium1970>
In the Adv Prog Course, we wrote some programs in lambda calculus . They were unreadable.
<Drup>
sure, lisp is lambda calculus with a standard library
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<natrium1970>
I’m leaving, but I again wanted to thank everyone for helping.
<tobiasBora>
If I want to use an other function which use some common arguments with mylongname, if would looks like :
<tobiasBora>
let short ?hello:(hello = "bonjour") () = mylongname ~hello;;
<flux>
maybe you want
<asmanur>
you can do let short ?hello () = mylongname ?hello
<flux>
let short ?hello () = mylongname ?hello
<tobiasBora>
However, if I want to change the default value I need to change it for two functions...
<tobiasBora>
flux: asmanur: It seems to be what I want... But what is the good syntax if the parameter isn't the same ? I mean if short has in parameter "hello1" instead of "hello" ?
<flux>
?hello:hello1
<flux>
it's the same as with ~
<flux>
but ? passes the 'optionieness' of the value
<flux>
so for example mylongname ?hello:None ()
<tobiasBora>
Oh ok it works great thank you !
<tobiasBora>
And is there a shorter syntax for ?hello:(hello = "bonjour") (when the variable is the same as the parameter)
<flux>
yes
<flux>
works with ~ as well
<flux>
as you used it
<flux>
oh right
<flux>
you were asking different thing :)
<flux>
?(hello="bonjour")
<tobiasBora>
Thank you !
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<mbac>
seliopou, i see.
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<mbac>
seliopou, what's happening to the error that's raised before the server deadlocks? i'd expect it would be raised to the toplevel and end the program
<seliopou>
mbac: it turns into a disconnect event
<mbac>
hmm
<seliopou>
i'm starting to realize that this is not a great interface
<mbac>
what about doing the write and choosing on either flushed or the monitor's exn stream?
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<tezl>
hi, I am thinking about trying to embed ocaml inside a C program to allow users to run ocaml programs -- is this possible? I see in the guide that I can call ocaml functions from C, but these need to be compiled first
<whitequark>
tezl: it is possible. you can write something that uses compiler-libs and dynlink to dynamically generate ocaml binaries and load them
<whitequark>
or as a simpler but more crude solution, use Toploop
<tezl>
whitequark: ok, thank you -- I'm looking at embedding a functional language in general -- it doesn't have to be ocaml -- can you think of a better option?
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<whitequark>
Scheme?
<Drup>
what is it for ?
<whitequark>
there are plenty of very nicely embeddable Scheme implementations.
<whitequark>
I can't quite think of something typechecked that would play nicely with C and dynamic code loading.
<whitequark>
maybe you could manage to embed Typed Racket, then you'd get kinda best of both worlds
<tezl>
Drup: I am making a (toy) distributed processing system and I feel more comfortable doing network code in C and then I will have each node executing a higher-level script
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<whitequark>
tezl: do you really need interactive loading?
<whitequark>
on an unrelated note, I heavily encourage you to write the networking code in OCaml. it would be immensely cleaner
<whitequark>
I recently implemented a somewhat complex networked app in OCaml and never looked back. it's not even comparable.
<Drup>
funny, people usually try to build solid fundations before putting the weird on top of it, not the other way around :D
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<Drup>
but, as whitequark says, I don't think interactive loading is really a super good solution.
<whitequark>
I understand that interactive development can be a right solution for some use cases
<whitequark>
but you really need to evaluate whether yours is one of them, because I'm not aware of a cheap way to do it
<whitequark>
unfortunately.
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<tezl>
ok, well, I am open to better ideas -- I am only in the planning phase -- I was initially thinking of embedding Python, but then thought a functional language would be nicer
<whitequark>
I personally would write the networking code in OCaml, then link the foundation together with OCaml toplevel to play with it
<whitequark>
then write the final version and ship it without any REPL
<whitequark>
I would definitely not touch C at any stage of development, it is annoying and completely pointless
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