flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<dramas> do arrays start at 0 or 1?
<whitequark> 0
<dramas> thx
<bernardofpc> Drup> because it's such an important piece of syntax quite poorly explained by the manual -> also, given that most things OCaml are ddirected to a fun prog public, there's not a lot of help to understand fundamentally different constructs as they appear in other paradigms
<dramas> quite
<bernardofpc> it's certainly "better" (in some sens) if one just lets his/her mind empty before learning
<dramas> also i bristle at your term 'fun prog'
<Drup> bernardofpc: that doesn't happen in practice, though. :p
<bernardofpc> at the same time, it's worse because you don't relate your knowledge, and that discourages a lot
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<Drup> we should have an article "Ocaml syntaxe for the dumm^W C programmer"
<Drup> dramas: you can s/C/Perl if you want :p
<dramas> so long as somebody writes the corresponding article, C for dumm^Wocaml programmers :)
<bernardofpc> (c*mp_cube is probably the one that has most heard me complain about strangeness in Ocamland)
<dramas> for what it's worth, i really got a lot out of learn you a haskell
<dramas> and it was a lot more approachable than what i've read today
<Drup> bernardofpc: c³ is the correct abreviation :)
<Drup> dramas: did you try the begining of real world ocaml ?
<dramas> i have not
<Drup> learn you a haskell is a nice book
<Drup> (and with cute drawing, which is an indisputable huge plus)
<Drup> we lack little camel in RWO :D
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<CissWit> x
<CissWit> u_u
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<dramas> and i gather i don't have, like, push/pop/shift/unshift...
<Drup> what are those supposed to do ?
<Drup> I don't know perl, sorry
<dramas> oh
<dramas> list functions
<dramas> er, stack functions
<Drup> sure you do
<dramas> asm has pop :)
<Drup> in the Stack module.
<dramas> i wonder if it's cheating to bring in that module
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<dramas> oh
<dramas> so there is stack.pop
<dramas> and push, and so forth.
<dramas> okay, that is refreshing. it feels a little more like home.
<Drup> yes, in the stack module, as I said ;)
<Drup> you can also do that directly on top of lists, if you want a functionnal stack
<Drup> the one is the stack module is mutable
<Drup> s/is/in*
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<dramas> gaaaaaahhhhhh
<dramas> again, i'm doing something wrong with semis. i think.
<dramas> it's just giving me this syntax error at the eof
<dramas> that code is just so tiny and so simple what on earth is wrong with it
<dramas> and why can't it be bothered to give me a more meaningful error :(
<Drup> (01:21:45) Drup: in ocaml, ";" is a separator, not a terminator
<dramas> yes but neither of those two lines return anything
<Drup> and ?
<Drup> actually, it does, it returns unit
<Drup> also, you will have an issue with Strack.create
<dramas> oof
<Drup> and finally, the equality function you want is (=), not (==)
<Drup> oh, not finally, you forgot the . for array access.
<dramas> oh golly
<dramas> i did
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<dramas> Drup: i am still stuck here. and i am just not finding it.
<dramas> i added () to stack.create
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<bernardofpc> let primestatus p = eratos n in -> this looks strange
<dramas> why is that?
<dramas> oh
<dramas> because stupid that's why
<dramas> thank you
<bernardofpc> welcome
<dramas> you know that point when you have been working on something very long
<dramas> and you can keep banging your head against it but you're way past diminshing returns
<dramas> but you are determined to get whatever it is done, damn the torpedoes and so on
<dramas> that.
<dramas> nothing ever gets done but wasted time. :/
<bernardofpc> yeah, bed gives counsels, one says
<bernardofpc> anyway , I must get mine or it'll be tool late
<dramas> yeah
<dramas> thank you
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* dramas packs it in for the night
<dramas> i give up
<dramas> :(
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<jzelinskie> Just started reading Real World OCaml -- and I thought Erlang syntax was funky :P
<Drup1> there is lots of syntax question on this channel lately =')
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<jzelinskie> tbh I don't really mind it; I'm glad some people are willing to try things out of the box
<jzelinskie> can't really make progress without it
<Drup> out of the box ?
<jzelinskie> Erlang's syntax is largely inherited from prolog though
<jzelinskie> as in the expression 'thinking outside the box'
<Drup> ocaml's syntax is not really out of the box, except if "the box" is C :p
<jzelinskie> well, you don't go having to use double semi-colons in haskell
<jzelinskie> you don't have to go using double semi-colons*
<jzelinskie> for evaluation
<Drup> ah, yeah, that's an unfortunate issue with the top level
<jzelinskie> Also, you can't say (* this is common for comments *)
<jzelinskie> Not that I really see an issue, just saying that maybe even for non-C-like languages it's still a bit different
<Drup> actually, it is ... in the ML family :D
<jzelinskie> alas my only experience with another ML-like language is Haskell
<Drup> Haskell is not really in the ML family
<jzelinskie> i'm probably wrong but i thought part of the goal in creating haskell was to stop all the different ML-variants
<Drup> I never heard that
<Drup> but it seems weird, since ML languages are all strict by default, unlike haskell
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<jzelinskie> I think maybe it was to consolidate research languages in the functional area -- not ML
<Drup> of course, some idea and design get shared between Ml languages and haskell, but that doesn't make them parents
<jzelinskie> I think my long-term memory just kind of combined two different thoughts together
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<jzelinskie> Well then -- I have no experience in any other MLs, so I guess I don't know what is normal :P
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<jzelinskie> Also I had heard some discussion that there are two opposing "standard libraries" core and batteries
<Drup> those don't have exactly the same goal, nor the same extent
<jzelinskie> please continue
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<Drup> so, batteries is a complement to the standard library
<Drup> it keep the same convention and don't break any APIs
<Drup> it only add stuff
<Drup> it's also mostly contains usefull data structure (and some IO stuff), it doesn't contains, let's say, a concurent library
<jzelinskie> and I suppose core is meant to entirely forgo the normal standard library
<Drup> concurency*
<Drup> mostly, yes
<Drup> it's also much bigger
<Drup> Core come with async, for concurency, and lot's of various stuff which I don't really now
<Drup> some syntax extension too, I think
<Drup> the only downside, is that the documentation is really poor.
<Drup> (well, there is also another downside, it's that it blow the size of your executable, but that should change soon)
<jzelinskie> is dynamic linking the reason "that should change soon"?
<Drup> no
<Drup> just a change in the compiler that resolve module aliases in a more efficient way
<jzelinskie> ah
<Drup> and Core contains a lot of module manipulation
<Drup> dynamic linking is already stable and I don't see why you would like dynamically against something like core.
<Drup> link*
<jzelinskie> Yeah, I just had seen that dynamic linking was relatively new
<jzelinskie> that was why I had mentioned it
<jzelinskie> I'm actually not a real big fan of dynamic linking
<Drup> It has some uses
<Drup> But yeah, you don't use it unless you really have a reason to :)
<jzelinskie> are there any "official ways" to write comments so that they generate documentation?
<jzelinskie> like docstrings in python, javadocs in Java, etc...
<Drup> (** blabla *)
<jzelinskie> that's exactly what I wanted, thanks
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<flux> I realized something cool about writing regexp support to ExEnum
<flux> then you could write a regular expression matching regular expressions
<flux> and use ExEnum on that to test the code :)
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<companion_cube> o/
<adrien> \o
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<mfp> ugh include (Lwt_log : module type of Lwt_log with module Section := Lwt_log.Section)
<mfp> In this `with' constraint, the new definition of Section does not match its original definition in the constrained signature: .. Type declarations do not match: type t = Lwt_log.section is not included in type t = section
<mfp> where type section is defined in Lwt_log, and module Section : sig ... type t = section ... end
<mfp> no escape to the eternal hell of copy paste :-?
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<gasche> mfp: this is due to a fairly hairy issue with "module type of" (it doesn't provide the strengthened signature)
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<mfp> guessed so, so copy paste it is then
<gasche> you can workaround this by manually re-strengthening the types
<mfp> really? my attempts to do so failed
<gasche> (here "section" but you'll also need "level" as my just-made experiment shows)
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<gasche> I guess I should amend the "this use-case is pretty safe" comment in my blog post
<gasche> it's apparently not, module systems will always come back lurk at you
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<mfp> cool, thanks gasche
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<rand000> Hey, I have a question concerning opam ... I can't seem to figure out why the package "mongo" / "bson" is not available - as they are available on the package list of opam.ocaml.org
<rand000> I have tried to update, to switch compiler + update etc
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<companion_cube> bson is available on opam
<companion_cube> rand000: why version of opam do you have?
<rand000> 1.00
<rand000> companion_cube: or rather 1.0.0
<companion_cube> ah, that is probably the explanation
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<companion_cube> opam is now 1.1, and packages for 1.0 are frozen
<companion_cube> I strongly recommend you upgrade to 1.1
<rand000> ahh..
<rand000> I think I installed opam the shell-script way - don't ask me why when I'm on ubuntu - how would I remove, but still keep my settings?
<rand000> and packages...
<companion_cube> if you keep your .opam, I think that using a more recent opam will do the upgrade
<companion_cube> I mean, it will keep your packages
<rand000> ah fine
<rand000> thx
<companion_cube> although opam switch export may be good
<companion_cube> (if opam 1.0 has this option)
<rand000> it has
<rand000> I will try that (:
<companion_cube> :)
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<asmanur> gasche: tss, you didn't quote pimp as an example for ocamlweb :(
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<gasche> asmanur: isn't it in french?
<asmanur> yes, I forgot about that detail
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<dramas> is there a command-line query to modules in ocaml?
<dramas> ocamldoc --help doesn't really seem to indicate
<adrien> hmmm, I don't understand what you're trying to do
<dramas> so if i want to see the prototype for Printf.sprintf
<dramas> at present i am just googling and getting parts of the manual
<dramas> i assume i have this manual on my local machine
<adrien> man Printf
<adrien> typically
<bernardofpc> the prototype you get just by entering "Printf.sprintf ;;" in the toplevel
<dramas> er, that gives me the c manual yes?
<adrien> dramas: capital P
<adrien> printf vs Printf
<dramas> oh you are correct
<dramas> thank you
<dramas> also i am quite stuck on a piece of syntax and i'm trying to track down where it is.
<dramas> is there a way to run something uh, interactively, or something, in a debugger?
<adrien> "ocaml" is an interactive shell
<whitequark> syntax? try ocp-indent
<dramas> adrien: it just barfs at the end of the statement which can be any lines long
<dramas> whitequark: what is ocp-indent?
<adrien> dramas: well, pastebin your code and we can have a look
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<dramas> adrien: can do.
<bernardofpc> What's your error message ?
<dramas> atm it is moaning about unbound value length at line 31
<dramas> length primestatus do
<dramas> i must have changed something last night before going to bed as that isn't the error i had before. :/
<bernardofpc> Probably you need Array.length or List.length
<dramas> huh. yes i do.
<adrien> dramas: you have "let upper n * n in"
<adrien> you shouldn't use "in" there
<adrien> hmmm
<adrien> hold on :P
<dramas> sorry it's a disaster
<adrien> ah, my bad
<dramas> this has been kicking my ass for over a full day now
<bernardofpc> dramas: eratos 4 takes forever to evaluate @ my computer
<dramas> bernardofpc: this i am aware of.
<adrien> I misread because I had to open iit in links and it cut the text in a weird place
<dramas> bernardofpc: i suspect it doesnt actually return
<bernardofpc> oh of course
<bernardofpc> your loop (innermost) does not change the value of next_nonprime
<dramas> oh
<dramas> you are correct
<dramas> wait.
<dramas> it should be defined as a function of iterator * iterator + !multiple
<dramas> it is derived each iteration, isn't it?
<bernardofpc> yep
<bernardofpc> probably your let has to be switched with the loop
<dramas> and since iterator is incrementing via for ... done, shouldnt it be incrementing?
<dramas> can you elaborate?
<bernardofpc> your problem is with multiple
<bernardofpc> it gets updated
<bernardofpc> BUT
<bernardofpc> next_nonprime not
<bernardofpc> (in your innermost loop)
<dramas> ohhhh.
<bernardofpc> (and yeah, arithmetic with OCaml and weird updates is a PITA)
<dramas> you are correct.
<dramas> wait.
<dramas> i have to declare it outside the while loop
<dramas> or it evaporates each iteration
<dramas> so i can't just move it into the while loop for incrementing
<bernardofpc> another ref you need
<dramas> so much state
<bernardofpc> yeah
<bernardofpc> prime numbers are complicated enough to Gödelize the world
<dramas> heh, true enough
<dramas> that is a clever way of putting it, even
* dramas chuckles
<bernardofpc> (you should probably clear out 0 and 1 as *not* primes, as well, but this is a minor mo)
<bernardofpc> *modification
<dramas> it starts at 2
<dramas> line 10
<dramas> so i think that while do should actually be a for
<dramas> that helps with state it hink
<dramas> although i cannot give for anything so complicated, right? it's just for foo to bar or downto bar?
<bernardofpc> yes
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<bernardofpc> however, you can certainly calculate the lower and upper bounds for this for *before* calling it
<bernardofpc> (just inverse the relations)
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<bernardofpc> dramas: as for 0 and 1, as your code initializes the array with "true" and never changes, this is the value they get at the end
<dramas> ah
<dramas> yes
<dramas> that is a flaw.
<bernardofpc> also, multiple should start at 0, not one, because you have to mark p*p as composite, not just p*p + p
<bernardofpc> gotta go
<bernardofpc> have fun with numbers :D
<dramas> yep
<dramas> thanks again
<rand000> Hello - I just installed opam v 1.0.1, but now I get an error with installing ocamlfind1.4.0 ...
<rand000> when I run 'opam install -v ocamlfind' I get a certain gzip error: "gzip: stdin: not in gzip format"
<rand000> anybody that have any idea what the problem could be?
<Drup> 1.0.1 ?
<Drup> not 1.1.0 ?
<rand000> sorry 1.1.0
<Drup> and you should update/upgrade
<rand000> (:
<rand000> I have done so ...
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<rand000> Drup: I had an earlier install of opam + a system install of ocaml; removed both after trying to export old libs, then import -> but didn't work, so I just removed .opam ++
<rand000> .opam folder
<rand000> then opam 1.1.0 could update the list, but now this ocamlfind problem
<rand000> I run ubuntu, and if I try to install ocaml + ocaml-findlib, then it fails too ... hmm
<rand000> the last line, I mean install through apt
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<dramas> i feel like i am asking the wrong question, but is it possible to set a "global" variable?
<dramas> i wish to include debugging commands in this code, and leave them in the code, only to fire if a global is_debugging is set
<Drup> sure, use a reference
<dramas> is there a smarter way to do this?
<Drup> no
<dramas> okay.
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* dramas sighs
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<dramas> got the syntax correct, now there's a silly logic bug
<dramas> because i surmise 324 is not actually prime.
<bernardofpc> probably not
<bernardofpc> more like 18^2
<dramas> heh
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<dramas> so bernardofpc if you're curious, http://pastebin.com/BYwU2XnC
<dramas> im still poking at it
<dramas> not quite crying uncle yet :)
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<dramas> is there a way to like um
<dramas> dump a datastructure
<bernardofpc> your math is wrong
<dramas> pretty-printed?
<dramas> well of course my math is wrong :)
<bernardofpc> you should mark p*p + k*p for all k between 0 and (maximum_relative to p)
<dramas> oh
<dramas> you are right
<dramas> i'm using p*p + k*p*p
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<dramas> ah, that appears to be it.
<dramas> i believe that means i have finished this. i am actually kind of surprised.
<dramas> i was so frustrated with this stuff yesterday i actually broke down and cried. :/
<dramas> i havent struggled this hard to pick up a programming language since c in college.
<Drup> well, you didn't take the easy road ;)
<dramas> which was what, exactly?
<dramas> doing it in perl?
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<Drup> you didn't really follow any book/tutorial
<dramas> well not front to back, i read bunches of them
<dramas> and tried to ascertain what i wanted from the fine manual
<dramas> i am inclined to say i did not have time to follow a tutorial, but then this took quite a while too
<dramas> so perhaps that is incorrect.
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<dramas> Drup / bernardofpc / adrien, thank you very much gentlepersons. i will possibly be around for more such hacking. hopefully less flaily next time. :)
<Drup> you're welcome :)
<dramas> out of curiosity, are you using ocaml professionally?
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<dramas> heh, my sieve is using 1.5gb of ram. goodness, that is inefficient. :)
<Drup> being in the end of my studies "professionally" is a bit sketchy
<dramas> ah
<Drup> but right now, no
<dramas> i am aware of a few places using erlang, lisp, haskell, and ocaml in production, but not a lot.
<dramas> so i am curious that there would be so many people here
<dramas> i wonder what the typical demographic is.
<Drup> there are a bit more than you might think
<dramas> it is certainly a lot smaller than the majority, however.
<Drup> sure
<adrien_oww> I use ocaml out of work mostly but I also use it from time to time at work too; usually the langage is determined by several constraints and legacy though
<dramas> (i make no judgment on that)
<dramas> i became intrigued with FP when a project at work inadvertently used erlang
<dramas> but could not get anyone interested enough in it to pay me to learn it and use it in the project
<dramas> so i peeked in on haskell and ocaml, and had learned forth a long time ago, but i never really got very far with it until this week.
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<smiler> Anyone have a decent prompt/color setup for utop that makes it look a bit less like unicorn poo?
<dramas> heh
<Drup> What do you have against unicorns ? :(
<dramas> and poops!
<smiler> They haunt my dreams :'(
<dramas> but unicorn tenderloin is so tasty and colorful!
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<dramas> is there a heredoc-alike i can use in ocaml?
<dramas> a way to print several successive lines?
<Drup> "List.iter print_endline"
<dramas> where is print_endline?
<Drup> in pervasive
<dramas> ok
* dramas looks
<dramas> hummmmmm
<Drup> about heredoc, I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly, but if you want stuff to generate documentation, you can look at ocamldoc
<dramas> but print_endline looks for a string
<dramas> basically i want to print out a few lines when the program executes.
<dramas> and repeated prints feels hokey
<Drup> what the issue with a string containing a few lines ?
<dramas> will it just keep reading until a closing doubletick?
<Drup> sure, why he would not ? ^^'
<dramas> i have suffered abuse at the hands of languages that consider whitespace significant
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<Drup> ahah
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<smiler> Ah, #utop_prompt_simple;; made it less chocking to my eyes
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<adrien> dramas: pa_xstrp4 for heredocs
<adrien> and string interpolation
<dramas> where does that live
<adrien> I don't remember :P
<def-lkb> smiler: didn't know about that, I will try thanks :)
<adrien> I know hcarty has worked on it but more recently, I don't know who's maintaining it
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* dramas peers at bitcoin
<smiler> def-lkb: :) I don't know how to make it permanent though.
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<def-lkb> smiler: put the line in ~/.ocamlinit
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<def-lkb> smiler: but be aware that it will print a message about unknown command with normal toplevel
<smiler> Hmm ok
<smiler> I guess it would be possible to detect the environment from within that file. But my ocaml skills are still n00bish.
* smiler used a lot of SML at university but haven't really touched ocaml
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<esden> Hi everyone. I am trying to debug an issue of lablgtk/signals on OS X. I tried to describe it with examples in detail here: https://github.com/paparazzi/paparazzi/issues/290 did anyone of you guys run into that issue? Also do you know of an alternative? As far as I can tell the glib child_watch_add is not wrapped by lablgtk, which would be the perfect alternative to the io.add_watch mechanism.
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<Xenasis> Anyone any clues?
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<Drup> "m4 not in PATH; this is required" <- quite self-explanatory
<Drup> install m4 :p
<Xenasis> ah, thanks
<Xenasis> I thought it might've been some config thing :P
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