Joerg-Neo900 changed the topic of #neo900 to: http://neo900.org | CCCAMP15 lightning talks at http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ - major: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900 | Welcome newest team member metacollin!
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<jcarpenter2> hello
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<Joerg-Neo900> hello
<esbjerg> any of you seen: https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
<esbjerg> seems pretty interresting
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, we seen it. It looks interesting indeed. Aims at almost 50% of what Neo900 is doing ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> to start with, I can't help but challenge the statement >>A fully standards-based freedom-oriented system, based on Debian and many other upstream projects, has never been done before–we will be the first to seriously attempt this.<<
<Joerg-Neo900> seems to me at least Openmoko and maemo did same before
<Joerg-Neo900> Neo900 however will be the first phone that's not closed source, nor open source closed hw docs, but YOUR source full hw and operation principles documentation
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<Joerg-Neo900> the next statement >>The Librem 5 phone will be the world's first ever IP-native mobile handset, using end-to-end encrypted decentralized communication.<< doesn't sound like it could stand a challenge either
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<Joerg-Neo900> >>We at Purism are building a phone that does not run Android nor iOS, but runs PureOS or any GNU/Linux distribution where all the source code is available.<< Not saying I'd consider using Android, but afaik for most of android sourcecode is available too
<Joerg-Neo900> as is for sailfishOS for example
<Joerg-Neo900> well, Sailfish has some closed blobs in UI layer iirc
<Joerg-Neo900> and they all use RIL to talk to modem, that - however maybe FOSS - is based on an undocumented ABI to modem, so it's as open as a proprietary linux NVIDIA graphics driver
<xmn> Really wonder why they did start with sailfish or plasma mobile as the base of their OS and then make a custom UI and clean up any privacy related stuff they wanted to.
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<Joerg-Neo900> the whole "facts" list is not very conclusive. a lot of buzzwords backed with little or no real rationale / considerations.
<Joerg-Neo900> * Does not run Google Android
<Joerg-Neo900> * Does not run Apple iOS
<galiven> xmn: They justify using their own OS because they already maintain it for the laptops.
<Joerg-Neo900> * ((Runs PureOS by default)), can run most GNU+Linux distributions
<Joerg-Neo900> s/PureOS/maemo/ and you got Nokia N900. Substitute arbitrary other OS name and you're wherever you want to be, even for a maybe 20% of Android devices
<galiven> As opposed to trying to take over a bunch of code from others in the form of sailfish, plasma, &c.
<xmn> yeah it all sounds good, but who knows. they don't have a great track record on delivering what they promised. I had someone tell me about this and they said "hope they go out of business" … not sure I would agree. But not a good sign.
<Joerg-Neo900> >> * World’s first ever IP-native mobile handset << whatever that means
<xmn> galiven: THis is true, they did mention that some where.
<Joerg-Neo900> >> End-to-end decentralized communications via Matrix << not exactly new but most likely not unique and also questionable benefit
<Joerg-Neo900> s/Matric/Telegram or $younameit/
<galiven> I worry that they haven't budgeted enough time or money on the actual baseband part.
<Joerg-Neo900> >> Security focused by design << How?
<Joerg-Neo900> >> Privacy protection by default << How?
<galiven> They have experience building some hardware, but mobile is vastly different than everything else.
<Joerg-Neo900> >> Works with 2G/3G/4G, GSM, UMTS, and LTE networks << Wow, really?
<xmn> yeah
<Joerg-Neo900> >> CPU separate from Baseband << OK, now we're talking, though 101
<xmn> galiven: but do they really build them? or are they repacking premade template HW?
<Joerg-Neo900> >> Hardware Kill Switches for Camera, Microphone, WiFi/Bluetooth, and Baseband << hmm, ok. The bare minimum
<galiven> Joerg-Neo900: They're also planning hardware switches to disable various things.
<galiven> xmn: It says "We're partnering with one of the biggest mobile manufacturers" for construction.
<Joerg-Neo900> hardware kill switches for CPU controlled peripherals are snakeoil
<galiven> The killswitches have been brought up in here often before, and I have read your arguments against them many time.
<galiven> But people still ask for them even if they are snake oil.
<galiven> So it might get them a few sales just because it gives people a false sense of security.
<Joerg-Neo900> IOW each phone I know has a "hardware kill switch" for camera, since the camera module would eat way too much power if there wasn't a sort of kill switch disabling it when not active
<xmn> The truth is I hope they can succeed since it might help fund other project with the same idea.
<Joerg-Neo900> or did they confuse the terms "hardware" and "manual"?
<jcarpenter2> xmn: i agree, we need more phones with well documented hardware
<Joerg-Neo900> I don't see "well documented hardware" anywhere on that website
<xmn> Yeah. It can only make things easy for projects like Neo900 and others.
<pigeons> i havent looked at purism in probably years, maybe its improved but when i looked the laptop didnt care about using nonfree wifi firmware, actually most of the firmware, several of the drivers, which is fine i guess, but it kinda rubbed me wrong with all the pure rhetoric
<pigeons> so i wouldnt hold my breath for them making anything close to neo900
<Joerg-Neo900> pigeons: sounds as if nothing changed in that
<xmn> And I also agree that I don't remember seeing a lot of their source code or links … but I have not looked for them .. so.
<Joerg-Neo900> a lot of marketing blabla buzwords backed by nothing, or even of fuzzy or nonsensical meaning
<xmn> Well some hype is needed. But I not sure I'm comfy with how they do it.
<Joerg-Neo900> could anybody explain to me what's >>IP-Native Communication First; Decentralized Communication by Default<< unless they really think they can start their own alternative little SIP-VoIP world, with ZRTP or whatever on top
<Joerg-Neo900> sounds to me like big illusion
<Joerg-Neo900> >>... we can change the future of computing to be respectful of your digital life.<< well, dream on!
<xmn> I guess they are give IP Com priority. Kind of like how skype and IP is on the n900. you can't tell the diff. And not sure about matrix and how that can work as the main communication platform.
<Joerg-Neo900> exactly my point (even while I have no clear idea what exactly is "Matrix")
<Joerg-Neo900> skype, whatsapp, telegram, SIP-VoIP have all been there before
<xmn> yup
<Joerg-Neo900> and oh boy, did we frown at Skype and on whatsapp as frankenstein rippoff versions of SIP and IRC
<xmn> but I think matrix can be self hosted and is fully encrypted and is open source and decentralized too. So there is that.
<Joerg-Neo900> not like SIP can't
<xmn> lol, I was happy to have skype and IP. it has saved me a few time when traveling
<Joerg-Neo900> it's a rarely noticed fact that SIP is a peer to peer protocol to start with
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<Joerg-Neo900> it's just almost never used in that mode
<xmn> yup
<xmn> I thought about set up a self host IP pnone, maybe when I have spare time … :)
<xmn> working right now
<Joerg-Neo900> what you need is either a sort of registrar, or DNS
<Joerg-Neo900> or fixed IPs
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<Joerg-Neo900> well the latter is the cover for the DNS/registrar thing
<xmn> yeah, I have a server and a dyn IP so could do the DNS too. But it's all new to me so you know.
<Joerg-Neo900> when you do direct-IP-P2P-SIP via DNS then the (Dyn)DNS server is your fixed IP. When you use registrar to estabblish the connection then the registrar is the "fixed IP" (possibly again via DNS)
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<pigeons> lots of time they also use a STUN server when behind NAT
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, that's the problem with P2P and NAT
<xmn> Ah, interesting. Yeah sadly working on making blender do what I want right now :) so no time for server work.
<Joerg-Neo900> you need stuff like PnP or simple-Traversal_of_Udp_through_NAT
<Joerg-Neo900> uPnP that was
<Joerg-Neo900> ICE is another equivalent to STUN
<Joerg-Neo900> anyway Matrix or whatever will have the absolutely same probkems. Even Skype had, just they do nasty to puch holes into any NAT, a network security admin's worst nightmare
<Joerg-Neo900> and still, even Skyoe more often than not needs to fall back to centralized proxy servers when both ends are behind NAT
<Joerg-Neo900> with SIP you can run your own registrar and proxy and gateway, as long as you got a system with fixed IP and full internet access
<Joerg-Neo900> with skype you can't
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<Joerg-Neo900> for encryption there's ZRTP, still way better than what Skype offers
<Joerg-Neo900> and SIP/ZRTP are all FOSS
<Joerg-Neo900> I used that a 10 years ago already, with twinklephone
<xmn> :)
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<ShadowJK> The P2P skype is no more
<ShadowJK> It's 100% through servers now
<ShadowJK> the old protocol is dead
<xmn> Still works on my n900. Thought it dead one day but it was a friends iphone new skype vers which was the problem
<ShadowJK> yeah they're moving all the desktop androids and ios clients to new protocol
<xmn> will see how long it last
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