<sn0wmonster> welcome aboard metacollin
<pigeons> welcome metacollin !!
<pigeons> I'm excited that the project continues despite challenges
<knttl> metacollin: nice to have you here
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<metacollin> Hmmmmm.... someone forgot to connect the center pads of the QFN packages in the schematics ;)
<metacollin> Or rather, the schematic symbols being used need to be (number of QFN pins + 1), with the extra pin for the center pad to ground.
<Joerg-Neo900> makes sense
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<Joerg-Neo900> though I guess that 'issue' also exists in many datasheets
<Joerg-Neo900> depends if the center is thermal and only "should be connected to GND" or it's an electrically active pin
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<metacollin> Yeah, if its not connected to anything, they usually just omit it, but a giant copper island floating like that is bad news, so it really needs to be grounded regardless
<Joerg-Neo900> that's covered by plane fill
<Joerg-Neo900> unless you decide to have signals or other non-GND on outer layer
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<Joerg-Neo900> it's actually sort of a religious question if that should get covered by schematics
<metacollin> well, the pads don't get nets assigned if they aren't... so any copper pour will avoid them and leave them unconnected
<metacollin> and you won't get DRC checks and risk missing an unconnected center pad etc.
<Joerg-Neo900> if it's not, I admit it's "have a peek to dadashit" time then to make absolutely sure the pad shouldn't be floating or even VCC or whatever
<Joerg-Neo900> ooh ouch, you're right
<metacollin> there is never a situation where it should be floating, that's just making a big ol' parasitic capacitor that will happily radiate like crazy heh
<Joerg-Neo900> prolly yes. I can't recall ever having seen anything but "GND on this one"
<metacollin> well, I checked the datasheets don't worry hehe
<Joerg-Neo900> which chip?
<metacollin> all of the QFN chips
* Joerg-Neo900 idly wonders if making a trace between GND pin and center pad in footprint would be the right approach
<metacollin> RFID, it's cortex M0 handler, the audio codec
<Joerg-Neo900> :nod:
<metacollin> Naw, the correct approach is vias...vias everywhere hahaha
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah sure, but for "schematics" concerns
<metacollin> ooooooooh
<Joerg-Neo900> this way it wouldn't even be a separate pad/pin
<metacollin> Sorry hahahaha
<metacollin> brain is in layout mode right now
<Joerg-Neo900> :-D
<Joerg-Neo900> mine is in shutdown r +10 mode
<metacollin> In kicad, you can just select 'NC' as the pin type, which specifies it as not connected electrically, but then you can still connect it to a net (like ground). So personally I just do whatever the situation calls for: if its mentioned that it is not connected or simply omitted entirely from the datasheet, I make a pin called EPAD of type NC, and connect it to ground on the schematic. If it IS electrically connected to something, then
<metacollin> I just treat it as the datasheet does (label it a pin if they do, or EPAD if they just say 'pad' or whatever) and of course have it a power pin type etc.
<Joerg-Neo900> which seems the canonical approach :-)
<Joerg-Neo900> In HB_AUDIO (above) would pin6.7yield heatsink problems?
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<Joerg-Neo900> called "pad connection: thermal relief"
<Joerg-Neo900> just asking
<jkepler> Joerg-Neo900: Thanks for your answers - they make sense and are reasonable. I think you've got a really interesting project going on, and hope to pre-order/contribute soon. I've just gotta find the time to sell a handful of older Apple laptops and Nokia phones, to get the money for my order. I want to do what little I can to help you guys succeed---privacy matters!
<Joerg-Neo900> thanks! :-)
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<metacollin> Joerg-Neo900, in my experience, thermal relief is largely unnecessary for reflow smd stuff larger than 0402. You will see people talk about one pad reflowing before the other causing tombstoning for 0402 passives, but I've never once had an 0402 tombstone and often have one pad connected to a solid copper plane. What really causes tomb stoning is crappy footprints, using soldermask defined pads, etc. The correctly sized footprint
<metacollin> should tolerate one pad melting first but not have enough leverage on the toe fillet to pull it vertical
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<metacollin> now, if you're hand or wave soldering through hole stuff, then thermal relief is definitely needed
<Joerg-Neo900> particularly when using VPS
<metacollin> yeah, it seems like thermal issues should be that much less than even reflow
<Joerg-Neo900> :nod:
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<metacollin> also, I reflow my prototypes by holding it with a pair of pliers and using a practiced hand plus a crappy 1500W heatgun I got 15 years ago. Not joking. I ended up getting so good at it by the time I was in a position to get a reflow oven that I just...well...haven't really felt the need to get one heh. So if there were any thermal issues with my general lack of respect for thermal relief, I think it would have DEFINITELY shown
<metacollin> itself by now heh ;)
<metacollin> er or they would have shown themselves
<metacollin> plus I like to make boards in non-ideal conditions, because if they are ok in that situation, then they should be that much happier if being properly assembled in a controlled process
<metacollin> I don't plan on ever doing that for this board, I don't really fancy the idea of hand places 851 components =P
<metacollin> just saying my experiences from other boards
<Joerg-Neo900> hehe
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah, assembly is yet another topic for the prototypes
<Joerg-Neo900> I just wonder if we could afford a pnp machine doing a 5 boards
<Joerg-Neo900> but seems there are new nifty concepts now, that cut out the fab dude in the middle and let you do the calibration for placing interactively from your PC at home
<metacollin> no man, you do not want to get a pnp
<metacollin> it seems like a good idea
<metacollin> until you realize how much work they are and how fiddly they are
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah
<Joerg-Neo900> so how do we plan to assemble?
<Joerg-Neo900> I mean somehow the components need to get picked n placed ;-)
<metacollin> oh i mean, you just use an assembly house
<metacollin> plenty offer low volume prototyping assembly these days
<Joerg-Neo900> yep, ideally
<metacollin> though it still won't be cheap like getting a few boards made is cheap these days
<metacollin> but it won't be horribly expensive. probably.
<metacollin> the proto_v2 won't be, but that 0.4mm bga might cost a premium unfortunately
<metacollin> Actually let me look into that right now
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm aware of that
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<Joerg-Neo900> on a sidenote: when any of you receive unsolicited SPAM private messages, do NOT click the link in there, and instead do /umode +R to block PM from unregistered bots
<Joerg-Neo900> freenode is under attack
<metacollin> ugh
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<metacollin> nowhere is safe
<metacollin> from spammers
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah
<Joerg-Neo900> [Notice] -kline- [global notice] Hi there: freenode is experiencing a large quantity of spam. If you receive links from users you don't recognise, please do not open them. If you are affected, please set usermode +R to block messages from unidentified users.
<Joerg-Neo900> [Notice] -kline- [global notice] Additionally, while working to minimise this spam, staff error led to the majority of the network receiving a temporary K-Line (network ban). The ban has since been lifted and those affected should be able to reconnect. Please accept our apologies, and contact us if you, or someone you know, still cannot connect.
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<metacollin> anyway, I know a small hardware company that is doing medium volume (1000s) and they got their own pick and place machine, and doing so was their single biggest regret and ended up wasting time and money. So my advice is to avoid them and let someone else deal with it. That said, I totally understand the appeal, I am guilty of watching a good deal of pick and place videos. Here is one of my favorites, it's got dat sweet German
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<metacollin> (music)
<metacollin> well no spam messages yet at least
<Joerg-Neo900> sure, I didn't plan to buy a pnp :-D
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<Joerg-Neo900> just *using* them is causing quite some setup expense usually
<Joerg-Neo900> but as said above, this seems to change
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<Joerg-Neo900> btw I already know this particular pnp porn :-)
<metacollin> hahahaha nice
<metacollin> Oh, did you have color preferences in terms of silkscreen/soldermask?
<Joerg-Neo900> nah
<Joerg-Neo900> not yet
<Joerg-Neo900> maybe for production
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<DocScrutinizer05> [2017-08-17 Thu 12:23:13] [Notice] -christel- [Global Notice] In light of the wave of spambots sending links to child pornography images, we have chosen to update our default umodes to include +R (blocking messages from unregistered users). To allow such messages, /mode yournick -R. Apologies for the disruption and the inconvenience.
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