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<zxss>
hey guys
<zxss>
my old phone is almost dead
<zxss>
i've been holding out on buying other phones to wait for neo900
<zxss>
but i've been waiting for years already and i fear my phone will soon be unusable
<zxss>
should i just buy a new phone or wait for neo900?
<zxss>
if neo900 will take over 2 years to finish i'll probably be wanting to buy a new phone
<tinix>
@zxss i'm in same boat, and to pile on, neo900 is now looking rather dated compared to years ago when this spec was drafted :(
<zxss>
yeah
<zxss>
are the specs locked down already, tinix?
<tinix>
*shrug*
<Joerg-Neo900>
zxss: yes, specs are pretty much locked down
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<user__>
Joerg-Neo900, would you say the phone will be ready within 2 years?
<Joerg-Neo900>
I very much think and hope so, however I've learned to be humble and not do fortune telling
<Joerg-Neo900>
right now the *plan* is to start building proto_v2 this year, we are negotiating with several layouters, trying to get the process started (originally, aka 10 months ago, the plan was that Nikolaus would do the layout and we could already deliver now. Alas this changed in unforeseeable ways). You _always_ run into nasty surprises like a layouter offering "1 to 2 weeks for doing the job", then when you negotiate with them, it's suddenly 6 months
<Joerg-Neo900>
instead of 2 weeks
<Joerg-Neo900>
what doesn't help either is the fact that Neo900 UG isn't a huge company that can hire and fire and rely on employees doing their job, we need subcontractors and we don't have a network of reliable ones yet, so we need ro build such network aka find people who can do the jobs in a reliable way
<saper>
in other words, don't hold your breath
<Joerg-Neo900>
the utopia plan would be: in 3 weeks we got the layout for proto_v2, in 8 weeks the ready built proto_v2 hardware (some 10 boards), then we send out those to the community software developers and them and us start evaluating/testing those proto_v2 for a 4 weeks and don't find major issues. Same time we start a kickstarter based on those proto_v2 to show off, to ramp up the number of preorders to the economic zone. So in 12 weeks we could start
<Joerg-Neo900>
layout and building of proto_v3 (release candidate), and in 16 to 18 weeks we could start final sales and production
<Joerg-Neo900>
this plan is not very likely to come true, we *always* seen that the unforeseen delays are the major factor determining how long any step takes
<Joerg-Neo900>
so, no matter the honesty of the numbers I gave above, this won't happen
<Joerg-Neo900>
nevertheless we try hard to make it happen exactly according to this schedule, even when we have to accept that it's not possible to keep the deadlines
<Joerg-Neo900>
just one 'funny' little story to illustrate: I ordered a 6 BeagleBoard-xM almost 2 years ago, for the proto_v2, at mouser. They postponed delivery by another 2 months on a regular basis each time the shipping date came near, since ComponentCo (maker of BB-xM) didn't deliver to Mouser. Until a 3 weeks ago they finally announced the BB-xM isn't available anymore. Luckily exactly same time I finally made to source 2nd hand BB-xM from USA and UK,
<Joerg-Neo900>
thanks to ravelo (community member) who helped a damn lot with that
<Joerg-Neo900>
status right now: we're honestly ready to start proto_v2 layout, and that *should* not take any longer than 4 man weeks til completion, for the mere layout and associated tasks. Then producing the proto boards should be relatively straight and manageable a task
<Joerg-Neo900>
I hope this helps to give some insight into our current status and planning
<Joerg-Neo900>
as much as I'd like to, I can't give any more binding, more precise prognosis
<Joerg-Neo900>
I just can tell a 100% sure how long it will take *at least* until production start
<Joerg-Neo900>
see above
<user__>
Joerg-Neo900, do you mean "in 16 to 18 weeks" after 12 weeks (making it 28-30 weeks total) or you mean 16-18 weeks in total?
<Joerg-Neo900>
that was total, based on adding the schedules in that explanation. But again, this is utopia
<user__>
so we should expect 5x that
<Joerg-Neo900>
I don't dare to speculate on that
<user__>
i see
<Joerg-Neo900>
since if that was a honest way to estimate, I'd already had done it
<user__>
well i'll probably get a oneplus 3 in the meantime i guess
<user__>
if utopia happens i'll just sell it
<Joerg-Neo900>
probably pragmatic plan to handle tings
<user__>
Joerg-Neo900, has richard stallman or anyone from the FSF commented on neo900?
<Joerg-Neo900>
i'm sorry I can't promise anything more cheerful
<Joerg-Neo900>
several times, yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
I had an email conversation with RMS just less than 2 weeks ago, I still hope to receive a reply to my last email
<user__>
Joerg-Neo900, he is usually adamntly against mobile phones, have you managed to convince him to use neo900?
<Joerg-Neo900>
basically it boils down to RMS trying to ignore out of existence the fact that *every* legally certified modem module has a firmware in flash storage that per consequence from regulations isn't alterable by user but of course is always updateable by manufacturer in either documented or secret ways
<Joerg-Neo900>
even if we could build a modem with FOSS firmware that is alterable by user, as required by FSF rules, such modem would be illegal to use outside an anechoic chamber
<Joerg-Neo900>
likewise there's no way to make sure the firmware is not updateable by manufacturer, since we can't look inside the module and see what can and what can't get done. We only have the docs of manuf we may or may not trust in
<Joerg-Neo900>
a basic truth is: flash storage is flashable :-)
<Joerg-Neo900>
and no modem will use One-Time-Programmable storage for their firmware
<Joerg-Neo900>
also note that all this "firmware not updateable" requirements are *ONLY* to allow FSF/RMS to ignore the fact that there _is_ software involved in this blackbox. It has not other purpose at all
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<Joerg-Neo900>
what can I say... in the end of the day it's Free *SOFTWARE* Foundation, and they are not _really_ in a position (nor obviously do they have the expertise needed) to judge on HARDWARE design quality
<Joerg-Neo900>
our hardware design is as open and user friendly as it possibly gets. What you do with it and thus if FSF is happy with it or not (which both relates to, or is determined by, the SOFTWARE used on the hardware) is not on us to decide on or have a major saying in
<Joerg-Neo900>
as soon as some brilliant community member finds a way to flash a new user defined firmware on the 'blackbox' chips, suddenly the hardware was fulfilling FSF's wildest dreams
<Wizzup>
Joerg-Neo900: again, this as a post on the web would be cool (your not-quite-fortune telling remark and what follows)
<Joerg-Neo900>
we seen that with Openmoko Freerunner. First it been FSF endorsed/compliant since there was no known way for user to update the modem firmware. Then I finally published a modem firmware bugfix update and thus any FSF approval got moot. And then eventually the Osmocom folks published OsmocomBB - an experimental flaky but FOSS firmware for the Freerunner's calypso modem - and suddenly Frerunner was FSF compliant again, more than ever. All the
<Joerg-Neo900>
time the *hardware* didn't change at all
<Joerg-Neo900>
Wizzup: I agree wholeheartedly, alas I'm not the guy updating the website. Maybe we can discuss it with how900/hellekin
<user__>
ok so essentially
<user__>
RMS told u he wont be using ur phone lol
<Wizzup>
user__: FSF certification is not the same
<Joerg-Neo900>
RMS isn't using *any* phone unless it has a pager to wake up the cellular
<user__>
no Wizzup i dont mean madman in a bad way
<user__>
i mean it like in way too ahead of the curve way
<Wizzup>
okay:)
<user__>
like leonardo da vinci madman
<user__>
if da vinci was around now u bet ur ass he wud be using a neo900
<Joerg-Neo900>
I think you're pretty much right on that
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<Joerg-Neo900>
h_w900: are you helekin aka how900? could you please redact a newspost form my statements about planned schedule and prognosis uncertainties etc above?
<Joerg-Neo900>
h_w900: maybe chat with Wizzup about what such newspost best shouls look like, and proofreading
<Joerg-Neo900>
h_w900: I concur with Wizzup (and others) that such newspost is the most important thing to have, since quite some time already
<Joerg-Neo900>
(right after a prototype to show off ;-D )
<Joerg-Neo900>
about RMS carrying a phone, and his notion about Neo900, see >>
<Joerg-Neo900>
> This is a big step forward in privacy. Whether it is good enough that I would be willing to carry one, I don't know. Nonetheless, I am strongly in favor of it, and I am willing to say so. Where and how should I say so?
<Joerg-Neo900>
however let's look at FSF's rules a tad closer:
<Joerg-Neo900>
> * The radio modem should be on a separate chip.
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is and idea of a sane approach, alas falls short in real life: even while 'on separate chip' the modem could use shared RAM with the linux APE CPU. Neo900 defines this as "no shared RAM or other means to access the ApplicationProgramEnvironment (vulgo: the linux system) in a way the APE CPU doesn't have complete control of"
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is an* idea
<Joerg-Neo900>
> * The main computer should be able to turn the radio modem on and off.
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is what every phone claims to be able to do, however you can't *guarantee* that the modem will obey - unless you do it the Neo900 way. we define this requirement as "APE CPU controlled hardware switch to cut power supply to the modem subsystem"
<Joerg-Neo900>
> * The microphone and the GPS should be connected to the main computer, not to the radio modem.
<Joerg-Neo900>
Right approach, but specifying implementation instead of purpose. Neo900 achieves same purpose by cutting the GPS antenna from modem
<Joerg-Neo900>
> * The software on the main computer should be free -- all of it.
<Joerg-Neo900>
well, this is a rather philosophical question since there the whole argument starts when we try to define what's "the software". Neo900 UG doesn't do software, so how would that point even apply to it?
<Joerg-Neo900>
slightly exaggerated this would be like: "spec for a CPU: the GUI must use a blue theme"
<Joerg-Neo900>
it's up to user what software to run on Neo900, so how could we possibly fulfill that requirement?
<Kero>
if you reead that as "all the provided software should be free", isn't neo900 just fine in that regard?
<Joerg-Neo900>
well, nope, since we provide a closed firmware in modem flash storage
<Joerg-Neo900>
and there's nothing we or any other phone manufacturer could do about it. At least there MUST NOT be a way for user to alter the firmware to their liking, and that's exactly what FSF mandates
<Joerg-Neo900>
so to put it plain: FSF requires phone manufacturers to break the law
<Joerg-Neo900>
we won't do
<Joerg-Neo900>
we will do all we can to enable our users to break the law if they like, but _we_ won't
<Kero>
well, yes; I meant w.r.t. Neo900 UG not doing software. not that it matters with the other reqs.
<Joerg-Neo900>
we are shipping modem modules that come with a firmware
<Joerg-Neo900>
and that's exactly the point FSF and we disagree
<Joerg-Neo900>
FSF is trying all sorts of philsosphical tricks to ignore the fact that modem has firmware. We don't like to invest energy in supporting this approach
<Joerg-Neo900>
rather we say "that's the way it is, so let's cope with it the best way we can"
<Joerg-Neo900>
trying another approach: is there *anything* Neo900 could do to be more compliant with FSF rules? Yes, we could use a FOSS WLAN, though that's also already illegal to sell in EU and afaik also in USA. But we couldn't build the device in this form if we would do, since such chip is larger and more power greedy than the one we use.
<Joerg-Neo900>
and that's it, nothing else we could change to please FSF, not even in theory
<Kero>
yes, I'm fine with that, keep up the good work :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
and the WLAN chip we are using *might* already have a RE'ed open firmware
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: do you mean that at the beginning of the neo900 project you listed all possible WLAN modules, and among all the ones that had a FLOSS firmware none of them had an acceptable power consumption ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: how is the WLAN module connected, is it embedded on the board or is it a separate module ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
none complied with all the (power, size, interface) requirements we have
<Joerg-Neo900>
it's a module embedded on PCB
<Joerg-Neo900>
with a max height of ~2.2mm
<Joerg-Neo900>
and a hardmac (processor on chip, so main CPU doesn't need to be active all the time)
<Joerg-Neo900>
no USB interface since that's power greedy by definition
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: how do you explain that ? the situation on the desktop and laptop wifi cards is (or was ?) not too bad, as there were several PCI and mini-PCI boards that ran with free sofware. Are the actors on the mobile market not numerous enough ? or is that market totally locked ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
available in low quantities, and having decent public datasheets
<Joerg-Neo900>
PCI is no interface we could use
<Joerg-Neo900>
also vast majority of those are softmac (main CPU does all the heavy lifting)
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<cc___>
(that question was about the lack of freedom-compliant modules with acceptable characteristics for phones)
<Joerg-Neo900>
well, see what I said. It's the explanation why in embedded the situation is different
<Joerg-Neo900>
there are very few FOSS hardmac implementations
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: does the module you've chosen come with a signed firmware ? you've talked about the possibility of reverse-engineering on it
<Joerg-Neo900>
*afaik* the firmware is _not_ signed
<Joerg-Neo900>
or if it is, you probably get a tool from TI to sign it yourself
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: and that tool would be proprietary and use non-documented interfaces I suppose ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
the "hardmac" firmware gets uploaded from userspace on WLAN chip 'boot', and TI provides a "FOSS" 'hexdump' of that firmware iirc
<Joerg-Neo900>
thus I said, *possibly* there already exists an RE'ed firmware version out there
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: ok, so I guess you've chosen the firmware that was the closer to RYF knowing that it couldn't be, am I right ? :)
<cc___>
the closest*
<Joerg-Neo900>
basically yes
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: will the radio lockdown law force you to change your plans ? will it force you to use a signed firmware at some point ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
at least the firmware upload from userland *allows* hackers to tackle it and mess with it. A chip with firmware in ROM wouldn't allow the same hacking
<Joerg-Neo900>
the chip doesn't support signed firmware, neither does the APE CPU allow a tivoization of our complete OS
<Joerg-Neo900>
and we're happy with it :-D
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: so what is going to happen ? could the product be declared illegal ? could the law harm the project in any way ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
eventually *selling* it might get declared illegal
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is a risk indeed
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: so, I've made a donation, you send it to me as a gift, and we're fine ? :D
<Joerg-Neo900>
though that law is relatively new and i'm not even sure it's in effect in USA already. And it might get changed, anyway it's not really enforced yet afaik
<Joerg-Neo900>
cc___: if the WLAN function gets decalred non-compliant to law. we will define the WLAN function inoperable and not ship the (closed blob) firmware file with it ;-)
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: right
<Joerg-Neo900>
btw Nokia did pretty much the same with FM-TX in N900
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: do you know how it is supposed to happen legally when you start a project, make a contract with customers/backers, and the law declares that project illegal ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
it never been a announced device function
<cc___>
can the law force someone to violate a business contract ?
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: oh, that's interesting
<Joerg-Neo900>
(violate business contract) interesting question
<Joerg-Neo900>
I think yes, they can
<Joerg-Neo900>
so we wouldn't sell to, or ship from EU anymore
<Joerg-Neo900>
officially
<Joerg-Neo900>
worst case we send to a proxy in e.g. Taiwan and you the customer negotiate import from Taiwan to EU/USA
<Joerg-Neo900>
it will take some time until that stupid law will be enstablished and in effect though
<Joerg-Neo900>
another possible approach was to make the legal sale *before* the law is en full effect, and only defer shipping
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: I like that flexible approach, Thinkpenguin (US-based) has stopped selling routers as soon as the law was applied
<cc___>
or maybe they ran out of devices at the same time, but they don't sell them anymore :/
<Joerg-Neo900>
sad!
<cc___>
now there's a non-existent router on the RYF page of the fsf
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: anyway, thanks for your answers !
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's the final consequence that's inevitable, yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
you're very welcome
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: and I'm glad to see the neo900 project posting updates again :D
* Joerg-Neo900
too :-)
<cc___>
I was a bit worried by the silence
<Joerg-Neo900>
thanks to hellekin for that
<cc___>
I started to look at the pyra project because I thought it would be finished earlier
<cc___>
which might be the case actually
<Joerg-Neo900>
it obviously should, since Nikolaus postponed Neo900 to complete Pyra first
<Joerg-Neo900>
this bitten us terribly
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: oh, you share contributors ? I didn't know
<Joerg-Neo900>
even worse: Pyra had such negative impact on him that he bailed out from layout for Neo900
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: well for now I'm supporting the two projects, let's see which one finishes first :D
<Joerg-Neo900>
so first we were waiting for Nikolaus becomming available again, then we had to restructure all the processes and tooling and human resources to accomodate with the fact that Nikolaus won't do the layout
<cc___>
the pyra will probably be more comfortable to work with but it will maybe not fit in my pocket
<Joerg-Neo900>
it won't
<cc___>
:D
<Joerg-Neo900>
it also is not really usable in a classical phone way, if only because of it having no earpiece
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<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: when do you exepect to finish the neo900, in the current circumstances ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
please see backlog of today, I elaborated on it a maybe 3h ago
<Joerg-Neo900>
however note the "a 2 weeks become 6 months, in negotiations with layouters"
<Joerg-Neo900>
coment of a kicad expert: "a 40h for that task ABS MAX! when a layouter claims they need a month for those footprints, get another layouter!"
<Joerg-Neo900>
so that's where we are right now, during last 3 days
<Joerg-Neo900>
also note that there will be a policy to get a "substantial refund" discount for all Neo900 owners, on STEP2 devices
<Joerg-Neo900>
soit's more attractive to get a Neo900 and then also get a STEP2 later, than to wait for STEP2 to maybe get available eventually
<Joerg-Neo900>
depending on economy, you might even get STEP2 for free when you're an early Neo900 adopter
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is community, you know :-)
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: I'm interested because I know ED has learned a lot from the making of the Pandora/Pyra and that next time he will be able to manage to production better, avoid some mistakes, make sure that the product meets the expectations of the market, etc. I suppose it's the same for you and the neo900 community.
<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: what do you think of the pyra approach to make "modular" hardware, where the CPU is on a different chip that can eventually be upgraded, allowing to save costs while staying on-par with the market, do you think it could work for an openhardware smartphone like the neo900 ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
basically we have the same, with our sandwich, just we need to integrate stuff like KBD on UPPER, because of formfactor and size constraints
<Joerg-Neo900>
pyra is a monster, volume wise, compared to Neo900
<Joerg-Neo900>
you might not be aware, but Pyra and Neo900 share much more than just the hw guy (Nikolaus)
<cc___>
:)
<Joerg-Neo900>
I even think Pyra inherited some nice details from Neo900, like dualtouch resistive digitizer
<Joerg-Neo900>
frequently Pyra guys point to Neo900 FAQ when it comes to modem :-)
<Joerg-Neo900>
afk again
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<Joerg-Neo900>
OOOH >>[2016-10-23 Sun 13:56:45] <Kero> if you reead that as "all the provided software should be free", isn't neo900 just fine in that regard?<< Yes, now I read >>The software on the **main computer** should be free...<< - so yes, we can comply with that
<Joerg-Neo900>
we then had the paradox situation that the board support package we ship with Neo900 would only contain 100% FOSS software, and it points via installation wizard to independent community sites providing e.g. maemo which in turn would offer installers downloading the non-free blobs for WLAN from the TI site
<Joerg-Neo900>
our BSP wouldn't allow to test the WLAN chip then. Well if that's what our customers prefer, to get a product compliant with FSF then so be it
<Joerg-Neo900>
we even could offer two different products: the consumer-Neo900 and the FSF-Neo900, they only differ in the BSP we ship with them
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<Wizzup>
Joerg-Neo900: I think the EOMA68 also did that
<Wizzup>
provides devuan, but also a fsf certified one
<Wizzup>
hw is the same
<Wizzup>
preloaded sw is not
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<Joerg-Neo900>
>>To prevent confusion among customers about exactly what product has been certified, any other products offered by the seller, which are not certified by the FSF, must be easily distinguishable from certified products: their names must not be similar and their packaging must also not be similar.<< http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/criteria
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>The seller must use FSF approved terminology for the FSF's activities and work, in all statements and publications relating to the product. This includes product packaging, and manuals, web pages, marketing materials, and interviews about the product.
<Joerg-Neo900>
Specifically, the seller must use the term "GNU/Linux" for any reference to an entire operating system which includes GNU and Linux, not "Linux" or "Linux-based system" or "a system with the Linux kernel" or any other term that mentions "Linux" without "GNU". Likewise, the seller must talk about "free software" more prominently than "open source."<<
<Joerg-Neo900>
seems they already nuked even more wicked requirements about "Seller must not have any links or mentioning to non-FOSS software anywhere on their website" etc blabla
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<cc___>
Joerg-Neo900: sorry one more question : which wifi module do you use exactly ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
hope you find the BD useful to answer your questions. If not, please don't hesotate to ask
<Joerg-Neo900>
hesitate*
<Joerg-Neo900>
since then we not only need to answer your question but also check why our block diagram failed to cover that
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<wpwrak>
the block diagram answers all questions. if you think there's one it doesn't answer, you either didn't look properly, your question is not a real question, or the universe urgently needs to have a patch day :)
<cc___>
amen
<atk>
I hear about a law banning something and forcing firmware to be signed - what is this law?
<Joerg-Neo900>
something about WLAN - and supposedly radar, though that's a red herring
<atk>
Any links to articles?
<atk>
(Just finished reading the whole backlog for today)
<wpwrak>
(just picked the latest one from my archive. didn't check if the links are really as good as they look. haven't been following this issue very actively.)
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