<jdz>
flip214: Of course it is possible to make it a bit faster portably by working with fixnum-siszed chunks, and only creating a bignum at the end, but that would not fit in a single line on IRC.
<flip214>
scymtym: with :specifications I don't get a result (in the left "Runs" pane) either. hmmm.
<jdz>
The biggest problem is working with bits. I'm pretty sure implementation works with at least octet-sized chunks.
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<jdz>
flip214: Why do you have bit-vectors in the first place?
<no-defun-allowed>
What are we doing with bits?
<flip214>
jdz: I'm looking at cl-qrencode, trying to speed it up. I'm currently converting a list of bits to a bit-vector, reducing garbage by ~33% so far. Now I got to the point where arithmetic (ECC) is being done on that data...
<flip214>
jdz: would you be interested to help? Then I'll just push my git-stash onto github for you to take a look at.
<jdz>
flip214: Why do you need bit-vectors? Just use numbers. Bit-twiddling in Common Lisp is so much more enjoyable than in C...
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<flip214>
jdz: all the input data is collected; but depending on the mode, each input element provides 5 to 13 bits.
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<jdz>
I'm looking at bstream.lisp file, and indeed some implementation choices are questionable.
<flip214>
jdz: github.com:phmarek/cl-qrencode.git, branch bit-stream-perf - the last commit shows the beginning.
<flip214>
the other commits before that are not well-formatted and described, but work fine.
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<jdz>
On the first look I'd suggest using arrays of (unsigned-byte 5) and (unsigned-byte 13).
<flip214>
jdz: well, there are 4 different input modes... so different types become unwieldy, I believe
<flip214>
but yeah, building a bigint out of all the input data was another idea I got during the bit-array conversion, too
<jdz>
If all the bits need to be packed together, then just use a bignum, yes.
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<flip214>
well, I was wary of needing to shift a bignum a few hundred times (for each input item) - or needing to know _where_ each input bit needs to land, beforehand
<jdz>
While building the bignum, you can work with fixnum-sized chunks.
<flip214>
and complexity goes up again...
<jdz>
C'mon, that's 3 or so more lines.
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<splittist>
What's the usecase for creating vast numbers of QR codes such that the time to produce them is a bottleneck?
<jdz>
That question entered my mind as well.
<jdz>
But then I looked at the code, and it stores bits in lists, and appends at the end all the time.
<splittist>
jdz: perhaps it's just bored, waiting for the user to move their mouse or the printer to cycle in the next sheet of paper (:
<jdz>
Could be. We neglect the needs of computer programs all too often.
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<flip214>
splittist: performance shootout ;)
<no-defun-allowed>
They ask "what is the program performance" but they never ask "how is the program performance" :(((
<jdz>
flip214: Have you measured how "expensive" bignum shifting is?
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<flip214>
jdz: no, not yet.
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<scymtym>
flip214: i don't understand how WITH-RECORDING could finish without adding at least an empty run. can you try tracing (i mean CL:TRACE in this case) CLIM.FLAMEGRAPH.APPLICATION::ADD-RUN?
<phoe>
69
<phoe>
oops, forgot a slash
<moon-child>
6/9?
<flip214>
scymtym: "#<SOURCE {1007CF5003}> setting up", then hung again...
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<phoe>
moon-child: /69
<phoe>
switching to the 69th irssi window
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<flip214>
scymtym: some load in sb-sprof:w-p works; with flamegraph I get lots of "Dropping ... event since there is no corresponding enter event on the stack." and then a hang
<flip214>
phoe: too many windows
<jdz>
flip214: Converting a bit-vector using fixnum-sized chunks is only 6.75 times faster than the simple one-liner with REDUCE (0.63s vs. 4.253s for a bit vector of length 300 repeated 500000 times).
<lukego>
Crazy thought. Maybe I could actually use CLIM layout features like stream positions and tabular layout and graph layout etc for circuit board design. I mean, I will generate the Gerber manufacturing data from the CLIM output records anyway, so it doesn't matter how I position the components, and if what I need is an NxM grid of (say) capacitors then why not call a standard CLIM routine to produce that? Seems nuts though
<lukego>
:)
<jdz>
flip214: Pretty sure you do not need to generate 500000 qr-codes per second.
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<scymtym>
flip214: can you put together a complete recipe for reproduction? i can install everything in a container to get the same versions if necessary
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<jdz>
flip214: Funny, in CCL the fixnum chunked version is around 10 times slower than the simple REDUCE.
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<jnewton>
morning everyone, not sure if my chat is working
<frgo>
Morning. jnewton: it is.
<beach>
jnewton: I asked you a question the other day: Did y'all ever finish your Baker-style SUBTYPEP?
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<beach>
jnewton: And good morning to you.
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<phoe>
jnewton: it is working, yes
<jnewton>
voila
<jnewton>
phoe: which reader do you use for IRC? I find the emacs ERC reader pretty difficult to get my head around.
<phoe>
jnewton: I have a separate server, and I run irssi there
<beach>
Huh? It is very simple.
<phoe>
I use tmux to be able to connect and disconnect from it at will, including from multiple machines at the same time
<beach>
jnewton: Plus, you then have your usual abbrevs and your usual spell checker.
<beach>
I understand most IRC clients don't have those.
<jnewton>
abbrevs? are you reverring to emacs abbrevs, M-/? I've never used abbrevs in plain text, but I use then pretty often in programming.
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<beach>
Not M-/ no.
<beach>
I am always surprised how few people seem to use abbrevs.
<beach>
I am talking M-x abbrev-move<RET>.
<beach>
And you can make ERC-specific abbrevs, which save a lot of typing.
<beach>
Plus, I then don't have to expose silly and hard-to-understand abbreviations on my readers. And I don't have to show the entire world that I don't master my tools.
<beach>
s/expose/impose/ I guess.
<jdz>
jnewton: For what it's worth, I use circe (another Emacs IRC client).
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<jnewton>
beach: by abbrev do you mean that when you type, emacs replaces what you type with what you meant?
<jnewton>
I tend to turn that feature off in editors that support it, because it too often replaces what I meant but misspelled, with what I didn't mean at all.
<beach>
Yes, like I would type "gme", and it automatically expands to "Good morning everyone!"
<jnewton>
ahh. well since I can type pretty fast, I can type good morning everyone as fast as I can remember gme.
<beach>
jnewton: Oh, but if you define your own abbrevs, it will replace only those, and you choose ones that you won't mistype.
<jnewton>
but that's probably the limit, i'd say
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<beach>
I don't believe for a second that you can type it as fast once you get used to using your abbrev. But if you don't want to save time, that's up to you of course.
<jnewton>
how can I open a chat with a particular person in emacs-erc?
<shka_>
hi all
<beach>
I forget. But I usually start with /msg <nick> ... and then the other person will create a private window.
<beach>
Hello shka_.
<phoe>
jnewton: it should be enough to type this into the erc buffer: /query phoe
<phoe>
this should create a new buffer containing the private chat
<beach>
Ah, right, thanks.
<nij->
Hello! I just found serapeum and am delighted by its documentation. I think it's now good time for me to start reading some awesome utils library. It has two benefits. First, I learn from more experienced people. Second, I would know what utils are available so I don't have to invent the (incomplete) wheels by myself. The problem is that I'm not sure what libs I should look into. Alexandria (1) is definitely on my list. How about
<nij->
serapeum, and other libs.. do you recommend any?
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<phoe>
nij-: I guess that quicklisp usage stats can give you some numbers for most popular libs
<shka_>
nij-: i use just alexandria and serapeum utility libraries
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<nij->
Hmm.. serapeum isn't that popular, contradicting to what I thought. What does that mean @_@..
<nij->
It seems to cover many popular utils libs..
<jnewton>
beach: you were asking about the version of subtypep we were working on at IRC. No it was never finished, and the student has graduated.
<beach>
I see. Do you plan to suggest the topic to a new student maybe?
<jnewton>
beach: I really wish I could have convinced the student to release the code in an unfinished state, but he didn't want to reslease it before it worked.
<beach>
Oh! :(
<jnewton>
beach: I hadn't planned to suggest it to a new student. Why? because I think the first student did all the interesting part of the work, and the only remaining parts are the parts that are not fun, or very difficult.
<beach>
Yes, I understand. Also, there are indications that Baker's technique can't handle the CONS type well, other than the trivial one.
<splittist>
So another 80% solution gets stuck in academic purgatory...
<jnewton>
beach: In retrospect, and just from a single data point, I believe one of the problems with Baker's algorithm is that it is conceptually elegant, but there are corner cases which are VERY difficult.
<shka_>
nij-: ok, sometimes uiop
<shka_>
mostly for FS
<beach>
jnewton: Makes sense. Anyway, we are probably going with Bike's work on a version that canonicalizes.
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<jnewton>
The student spent the last semester trying to model intervals using a technique using multi-dimentional potentially unbounded bounding boxes. it made really pretty slides and really pretty lightning talks but couldn't in the end figure out whether such a set was a subtype of T.
<shka_>
nij-: anyway, i think that serapeum is just fine
<beach>
jnewton: Hmm, I see.
<beach>
Baker writes that canonicalization can create exponential blow-up, but I doubth that it will happen in practice.
<shka_>
it is random set of utils, but they are written well enough
<beach>
*doubt
<jnewton>
my experience, with unbounded blow-up is that the blowup happens often in testing.
<jnewton>
How do you intend to test subtypep?
<beach>
I have no idea. It's Bike's work.
<splittist>
nij: serapeum is great, and a good read. But utils libraries grow out of abstracting from concrete requirements, so it's sometimes hard to understand why something is done in a particular way if you haven't faced particular challenges. Something like cl-ppcre, where the domain is easily understandable, might be more illuminating if you're looking for examples of lispy ways of meeting concrete challenges.
<jnewton>
I dont know who Bike is.
<beach>
I told you in the private message.
<beach>
Bike comes here pretty much every day, UTC-4 I believe.
<beach>
jnewton: We hang out in #sicl as well, for more compiler-related discussions.
<beach>
... and more generally, for techniques related to implementing Common Lisp.
<jnewton>
beach: ahh, my private message window is hiddent, and nothing in emacs (that I noticed) notified me that I have new information to read in a hidden buffer.
<beach>
There should be a little [..] thing in the mode line.
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<beach>
It would have said [b] for `beach' I guess.
<jnewton>
in which mode line? the main one? if the buffer is hidden, then I won't see its mode line. right?
<beach>
I have mine in every mode line of every window.
<beach>
It reports changes in windows that are hidden.
<beach>
Like right now, mine says [i] (in gray) for "irc.freenode...", so I guess I have a message from the admins.
<jnewton>
mine says [i] with a red/orange i.
<beach>
Same thing but different kind of message.
<jnewton>
when I hover the mouse over the red i, it tells me
<jnewton>
mouse-2: switch to buffer mouse-3: switch to buffer in other window.
<beach>
Ah, never tried that. Good to know.
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<splittist>
(I use irccloud.com, as, I think, does drmeister; costs money, is web-based, doesn't use abbrevs, but is persistent, usable from any machine, and meets my modest needs.)
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<loke[m]>
Have any of you ever used PAIRLIS?
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<loke[m]>
It seems to have been around forever, but I have never used it.
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<flip214>
scymtym: having a cpu-using body in with-recording seems to work... although I now see %start-time being 0, so I need to zoom 51y into the graph ;(
<scymtym>
flip214: i don't know what "work" means given the different execution and failures modes you have described. are you still trying to do deterministic profiling or are you now looking for a flamegraph based on statistical profiling? i think the incorrect duration happens when no deterministic traces have been recorded. as i said: i can only address issues if you provide a recipe for reproducing them
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<flip214>
scymtym: yeah, understood. But a recipe ain't that easy...
<flip214>
right now it "just worked" and gave me a 5sec trace.
<flip214>
no idea why start time was empty just 10 mins ago...
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<scymtym>
flip214: did you adjust the SAMPLE-RATE in CALL-WITH-RECORDING? otherwise it will skip a certain ratio of calls
<flip214>
:sample-rate 1 as per your tip.
<flip214>
can it be a problem if I run W-R in the REPL thread?
<scymtym>
i didn't see any problems with that
<scymtym>
note that you can record calls that are already in-progress when the recording starts. that's where WARNING: Dropping #S(EVENT …) comes from
<scymtym>
in the failing case, does the recorded run say "0 threads", "0 traces"?
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<flip214>
but that grrrr, now I got 1.6e9 seconds again... and so display breaks.
<flip214>
well, if it hangs, I get _no_ swank communication any more - checked with wireshark.
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<scymtym>
try whether omitting :record-blockers? and :record-io? helps with the hanging
<scymtym>
for the bogus duration, right-click that run and look at the start/end times and the traces
<flip214>
that's what I did - %start-time is 0
<flip214>
looking at the traces next
<flip214>
grrr... got 12.4seconds (correct), but clicking on "Analyze run" made the CPU spin for ~15secs - but no response any more
<flip214>
got one with 1.4sec, one with 51y now... but when I try to inspect the 51y one I get no response.
<flip214>
ah.... heap exhausted!
<flip214>
with a 5GB heap?!??!
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<scymtym>
did it say how many traces it captured?
<flip214>
1700, and 7
<flip214>
(yeah, 7, I believe - or 17 or something like that)
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<flip214>
ah, got it.
<flip214>
I added to the packages list... but had a type, ":HUNCHENTOOT" instead of "HUNCHENTOOT" - and that seems to give a loop that allocates memory until the heap is exhausted.
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<scymtym>
i can look into that specific problem but generally, i don't understand what you are doing
<flip214>
I don't understand either, I guess ;)
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<flip214>
but now it works fine...
<flip214>
seems the :record-blockers and :record-io breaks my usecase (socket IO via swank??), removing them helps tremendously
<flip214>
and not needing :specifications is good as well, now I can even trace with external load generators
<flip214>
thanks, I'm good so far, I believe
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<flip214>
jdz: QR is ~25% in my macro benchmark, so you've got a chance to increase performance of my usage by 1.33x! ;)
<flip214>
resp. BYTES->INPUT is about 25%, INPUT->SYMBOL is another 23%
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<agumonkey>
I'm having a little issue with quicklisp / asdf
<agumonkey>
hi phoe
<agumonkey>
on a machine (linux mint + sbcl) I could load-asd "/.../...asd" then load-system :foo and it fetched dependencies
<agumonkey>
(or so that's what I remember)
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<agumonkey>
but on my remote laptop (arch + sbcl) if I load-asd then load-system `I get Component ASDF/USER::CL-HTML-DIFF not found, required by #<SYSTEM "nyxt">
<agumonkey>
[Condition of type ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-DEPENDENCY]`
<agumonkey>
<agumonkey>
(apologies for the multiline flood)
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<Xach>
agumonkey: quickload would work, but load-system would not.
<phoe>
likely because you do not have cl-html-diff downloaded there via qu--- yes
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<phoe>
try quickloading it instead, quicklisp will try to pull all dependencies first
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<agumonkey>
hmm so asdf doesn't deal with fetching, only loading/setting up when they're already retrieved by quicklisp:quickload ?
<agumonkey>
(newb question in case it's not obvious)
<agumonkey>
hi Xach btw
<Xach>
agumonkey: that's right, asdf loads what is available and signals an error if something is missing. quicklisp handles that error and fetches things to retry.
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<agumonkey>
hi back
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<agumonkey>
I see libfixposix is absent on both mint and arch :)
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<phoe>
build from sources!
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<royae>
hello
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<phoe>
heyyy
<royae>
hey phoe :)
<royae>
I was wondering why Common Lisp does not have a real module system ?
<royae>
C. Queinnec once report in a paper that D. Moon told him not to use packages as a module system, as it is a reader thing.
<phoe>
by "modules" you mean some sort of immutable blobs of code, or something?
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<beach>
royae: It is often pointless to ask "why" Common Lisp is missing something. I mean, the answer is that it wasn't put in when the standard was made.
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<royae>
As the modules of racket scheme, or scheme48
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<beach>
royae: So are you asking what the state of mind of the members of the committee was when they didn't include it?
<royae>
beah : exact :)
<phoe>
oh, OK - one issue I see is that it's hard to assign a piece of Lisp code to a module because it's hard to cleanly slice pieces of a Lisp image; there's side effects that can mutate the state of the whole image
<jackdaniel>
there are two rickety and deprecated interfaces for modules: require and provide
<jackdaniel>
but it is so underspecified that you can't really call it a module abstraction
<phoe>
ASDF works around this, but it's still not 100% modular where you can plug things out as easily as you can plug stuff in
<beach>
royae: If I may guess, the reason is that they were not able to figure out a solution that was both semantically sound and that would not harm performance.
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<beach>
royae: For instance, when I wrote my paper on first-class global environments, I read the paper by Queinnec, and decided that the overhead was going to be too great for Common Lisp.
<beach>
royae: Most module systems I have seen require a hash-table lookup for every function call, and that would be totally unacceptable.
<royae>
beach: Ah OK. I undestand.
<beach>
Of course, I now solved that problem, but much later. :)
<royae>
But resolving bindings could be done at compile time though ?
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<beach>
That's what my system does, yes.
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<royae>
beach: Ok ! It will be a huge progress for sharing code :)
<beach>
I doubt that it will be adopted by existing implementations, so I fear that the impact is going to be low.
<beach>
It can't be bolted onto an existing implementation. The implementation would have to do some major rewrites.
<beach>
Plus, implementations like SBCL that are optimized for performance will not even consider it. Although there is no overhead for a function call, there is a hash-table lookup for things like (fdefinition <non-constant-name>).
<beach>
royae: And you can't really resolve bindings completely at compile time, given that Common Lisp requires late binding, so you still need an indirection. I guess existing proposals did that with a hash table lookup and, like I said, it is not acceptable because of performance.
<royae>
Well I think it'a very attractive functionality for SICL. I miss it in CL implementations more often I need performance.
<beach>
The package system works OK for most cases.
<beach>
The main difficulty is with having different versions of the same system loaded simultaneously.
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<beach>
Another possible answer to "why" is that the vendors involved in the standard thought it would cost too much for them to implement it, given their existing CLtL1 implementations. As I mentioned, it would be a major rewrite of several parts of such an implementation. Given how programs were written at the time, it is likely that the absence of a module system permeates most of the code,
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<royae>
beach: OK, That is a "good" reason.
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<royae>
Neverless I think the fact that packages are a reader thing make the code less clear.
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<beach>
There is a long tradition in the Lisp world that new features are first implemented as libraries (that may require minor modifications to the implementation), and then tested for a significant amount of time before becoming widely adopted. CLOS is an example of that.
<beach>
The people in the standards committee would not just dream up some feature that they thought would be useful. And that is unlike the many relative newbies here in #lisp, who think that is a good way of defining new features.
<beach>
So we can consider first-class global environments as the first step of such a process. Next will be the incorporation of first-class global environments in a native version of SICL. Perhaps many years later, it will be agreed that it is a good feature with reasonable performance cost. Only then would it be adopted more widely.
<royae>
Beach: Yes stability is a huge win :)
<royae>
beach: we will see. I hope so ;)
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<royae>
Thanks for answering. I'm reading scheme48 implementation code but then I will have a look at SICL !
<ebrasca>
I am sure we have normal environments. Why first-class global environments?
<beach>
ebrasca: The typical Common Lisp implementation has exactly one global environment,
<beach>
ebrasca: And that's not enough for reasons of modularity.
<ebrasca>
I did think they did have 3.
<ebrasca>
Compile , eval and runtime.
<ebrasca>
Not sure about the names.
<beach>
The standard says that, but then it also says it they are allowed to be one and the same, and that's what all implementations do.
<beach>
"The compilation environment inherits from the evaluation environment, and the compilation environment and evaluation environment might be identical. The evaluation environment inherits from the startup environment, and the startup environment and evaluation environment might be identical."
<beach>
ebrasca: But that's not the point here. The point here is that more than one run-time environment is needed for modularity.
<ebrasca>
I am not fan of sandboxing.
<beach>
Nobody mentioned sandboxing.
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<CL-ASHOK>
What's the best way to write Lisp documentation? I am thinking detailed documentation on exported functions within a package, with some basic notes how internal functions work?
<CL-ASHOK>
Any other suggestions?
<ebrasca>
I have wath a video today about your first class enviroment.
<no-defun-allowed>
CL-ASHOK: You likely want to make separate documentation for the protocol users should use, and for internals.
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<beach>
CL-ASHOK: You mean what software to use? There are so many choices that any one choice would only get a tiny fraction of approval.
<jackdaniel>
it provides a very good intuition about different types of documentation and how they supplement each other
<CL-ASHOK>
jackdaniel: thanks! time to read :D Exactly what I was looking for
<jackdaniel>
sure
<CL-ASHOK>
no-defun-allowed: That's true, will do that. For now, its just documentation for myself, but I'll then split it into two and the exported functions will go to the user documentation
<CL-ASHOK>
beach: I'm just using GitHub Wiki Pages for Now, want to keep overhead as low as possible
<beach>
I see, yes.
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<CL-ASHOK>
Who wrote QuickDocs? Is that something that can be started again?
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<no-defun-allowed>
It can, but one should wonder if it should. At least nice documentation needs more formatting and introductory text than what you can get from scraping documentation strings.
<CL-ASHOK>
I never had the chance to use it. I see QuickRef from time to time, but I'm not the biggest fan
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<no-defun-allowed>
My best documentation is probably in <https://theemacsshibe.gitlab.io/documentation/> which is still incomplete, but has almost everything I think is right for a reference.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Sometimes it also mentions why a design decision was made, which also wouldn't fit in a documentation string or internal comment.
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<CL-ASHOK>
Thats a very detailed example. The decision of the pages (left hand menu, prev / next on the top) is really good
<CL-ASHOK>
Yes, I think documenting the why behind design decisions is very important. Basically the exported definitions should be clearly explained so that a newcomer can read them, then the internal definitions should be lightly explained, with a focus on the why and how vs. detailed notes on each function
<CL-ASHOK>
IMO many functions are self explanatory, and we get lazy anyway when it comes to writing docs.
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<no-defun-allowed>
My "aggressively move code into separate functions" strategy also lets me seemingly avoid comments by picking nice function names.
<ptdevnull>
I'm trying to set up a Doom Emacs environment with sly, but I keep running into issues with sly-contrib. Currently it's throwing an error trying to load sly-macrostep and complaining of an attempt to load an empty FASL file. Does anyone have a working configuration?
<no-defun-allowed>
(Of course, one picks good function names instead of writing good comments.)
<ptdevnull>
What's the best way to pastebin a Slime/Sly backtrace?
<CL-ASHOK>
I do the same, although I still haven't mastered what I think is a good naming convention for functions. I do really like functions & variables having separate namespaces
<CL-ASHOK>
e.g. (let ((word-list (word-list word-string))... is preferred style, the repetition of the variable / function name imo makes it easier to digest
<CL-ASHOK>
my* preferred style
<gabc>
Ben j'ai pas fait ç
<CL-ASHOK>
ptdevnull: sorry don't know the answer of your query. Although I recommend Vanilla Emacs if you want to modify things a bit, after some time, the customised solutions like Doom / Portacle become a pain to modify to your desired setup
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<lukego>
splittist, fiddlerwoaroof: hey I just pushed a small-but-big change to CLIME on the emacs side. Now it basically works fine to kill/yank CLIME images into other buffers. (Before if you moved the point onto an image then the keyboard stopped working because all the keymap events were buggered up, and yanked images didn't work with ACCEPT.) "Simple" fix that took a full day w/ help from #emacs to work out :)
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<lukego>
Have to think about performance soon... I currently have about 60,000 presentations alive in both Emacs (as area definitions on image objects) and in Lisp (as strong references in clim-emacs::*presentations* registry.) It takes noticable time for Emacs to update all the presentations when switching input context e.g. a couple of seconds now.
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<jmercouris>
no-defun-allowed: comments are not intended to explain what, but how, the function name should /always/ suffice for what
<jmercouris>
that is the whole point of a function name/signature
<jmercouris>
they are not arbitrary symbols, they are a piece of text that is supposed to convey meaning for programmers
<jmercouris>
otherwise each function could be completely anonymous or named by memory address... etc
<jmercouris>
in other words, good function names are not a substitute for comments
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<phoe>
I'd be more like, names explain the "what", documentation and docstrings explain the "how", comments explain the "why"
<jmercouris>
yeah, close enough 11
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<jnewton>
jmercouris: should I have to change the name if I don't change what a function does, but I change how it does it?
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<jnewton>
I would say that normally a function name is independent of its implementation. There are exceptions of course such as. FooFast and FooSlow
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<Inline>
what the fuck is up
<Inline>
my client gets disconnected so often
<Inline>
bah
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<jmercouris>
jnewton: no, the name only describes what
<jmercouris>
Whether it is slow or fast is a property
<jmercouris>
Unless you are calling it slow-sort as a noun
<jmercouris>
The name need not ever change
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* jackdaniel
takes notes
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* Inline
notes the note takers
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<pjb>
phoe: yes, but only superstars need to apply to join Ravenpack's team of superstars… ;-)
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<pjb>
I wonder what a real module system is…
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<loli>
beach: is that the case because of qualification and updating qualification upon module changes would be too expensive?
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<loli>
beach: also do you have any more references for first class environments, I've read your SiCL paper about the subject
<loli>
it seems the scheme guys have first class environments (I believe MIT does)
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<rpg>
I could use some iterate advice if anyone has it. I have an iter loop using with-vector, and when I declare the type of the iteration variable I get this warning: Iterate, in clause (FOR CHILD IN-VECTOR (CHOICE-CHILDREN CHOICE-ENTRY) WITH-INDEX INDEX): Cannot supply an initial value for type (OR NULL CHOICE); using NIL. I have no idea how to make it go away.
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<rpg>
The problem only arises when I put in a type declaration for this variable (so, yes, I know -- don't do that then!).
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<rpg>
I found the problem -- it's what I think of as a rare oops in the ITERATE code base.
<Bike>
the function that's coming from looks dicey but i don't understand what it does well enough to diagnose anything
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<Bike>
seems like they could just do (subtypep null declared-type) and if true, heyo, initialize to nil
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wish that job posting for RavenPack showed up three months ago
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jackdaniel: cool
<jackdaniel>
thanks
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<nij>
How much mouse should I use with CLIM? Is it possible to customize it to be keyboard-centric?
<nij>
jackdaniel: thanks for your tutorial :)
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<jackdaniel>
nij: thanks. that depends on the application, but in principle commands may have keyboard accelerators
<jackdaniel>
as of selecting presentations on the screen, at some point of time I saw that someone hacked something so small numbers appeared beside acceptable presentations so it was possible to type the number instead of using a pointer
<jackdaniel>
I don't remember details though
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<copec>
What sort of CI/CD do you use with CL? Do you create a fresh image if you fix something and commit it to a repository? Have you setup a way to update the remote image? What sort of interaction do you do between a local copy of your source, and local running emacs with a remote swank?
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<pjb>
copec: yes, if you want to validate or build a library or application, it's better to start from a fresh image.
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<pjb>
copec: of course, it's related to the question of delivery: it will depend on how you will deliver your code, and how you test it.
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<pjb>
copec: but assuming you build (save) executable images, here is a typical example of how I proceed: https://github.com/informatimago/hw
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<pjb>
copec: note, ecl is a special case, since it doesn't save executable images, but instead it will produce normal elf objects and binaries (or whatever native format on the target platform, since it goes thru gcc to compile and link).
<copec>
The code I'm using is just for me to administrate a bunch of things, we use SaltStack and gitlab internally, so I made some states that build roswell, and then I use that to build my image (against sbcl specifically)
<copec>
which then gets installed in a docker container
<copec>
It all seemed so what everybody does for non-lisp stuff, I just wondered if I'm doing it wrong
<fiddlerwoaroof>
copec: for CI/CD I usually end up just using docker or whatever