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<mister_m>
What causes (subseq "a" 1) to result in ""? If I try to access the character at that same position, it would result in an out of bounds error.
<aeth>
(elt (subseq "a" 0) 0) => #\a
<aeth>
(elt (subseq "a" 1) 0) ; errors
<aeth>
So it's consistent with that behavior
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<aeth>
It's probably permitted to allow iteration that ends with "", which is sort of like list processing (a lot of those algorithms end on NIL)
<mister_m>
I see, that makes sense to me
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<aeth>
This whole way of thinking kind of parallels car/cdr, except that it's not efficient (since SUBSEQ is consing up a new string each time)
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<saturn2>
it's permitted for the start of a sequence bounding index to equal the length of the sequence
<saturn2>
the result is simply an empty sequence
<aeth>
it makes sense because it's sequence-generic including lists, e.g. (subseq (list #\a) 1) or (subseq (list #\a #\b #\c) 1) not just (subseq "a" 1) or (subseq "abc" 1)
<aeth>
So it really is just a generalization of CDR
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<aeth>
(conceptually, at least... concretely, it copies!)
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<saturn2>
i would say it avoids a class of special cases you'd otherwise need to check for, and just makes logical sense
<saturn2>
similar to how (+) is 0
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<saturn2>
the length of a subsequence is always (- end start), whether or not start and end are equal
<mister_m>
thanks for the clarification; I've been doing a lot of car/cdr iteration lately and that sort of jumped out as a "huh" moment
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<skami>
pjb: Thanks for the clarification ! That would indeed be a fun projet to add such a read-only feature
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<skami>
I'm surprised to learn that append doesn't copy the last list, but it does make sense
<stylewarning>
APPEND, like most lisp functions, prefers to get the job done with the fewest copies
<no-defun-allowed>
APPEND could get confused if it tried to copy something that isn't a list, e.g. in (append '(1 2 3) 'a)
<no-defun-allowed>
(or at least, as if it used COPY-LIST to copy.)
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<luis>
madrik: well, you can go back if the upgrade broke your software, or you can have different software on different versions of the quicklisp distribution
<lotuseater>
ah (monadic) parser combinators are powerful :)
<nij>
I know I want to learn it.
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<splittist>
nij: you mean beyond (parse-string* (seq-list? (digit?) (digit?) (digit?)) "123") ?
<splittist>
(which yields (#\1 #\2 #\3); nil; t; nil; and a hash-table )
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<nij>
oh wow
<nij>
lemme try
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<nij>
Cool. It works. Next is to try to learn how it's implemented.. I feel like it's more advanced than my level.
<nij>
splittist: Do you happen to know if cl-parser-combinators can parse sexprs?
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<splittist>
Built in? I don't know. As a general parsing lib it must be able to if set up. I guess you'd define atom? (or whatever your language requires) then match on an open paren, any number of sexps and a close paren. Not quite like this: (parse-string* (bracket? #\( (sepby? (int?) #\Space) #\)) "(1 2 3)")
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<nij>
Thanks for the hint. I'm not capable of building that up yet. But I've taken notes.
<nij>
Now I'm very curious about one other thing.. not quite related.
<nij>
From functional parsers, we see that its syntax is quite like a DSL.
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<nij>
What's different is that the components of the DSL are functions!
<nij>
Many articles I read about lisp only says that macro helps you create DSLs a lot easier.
<nij>
But.. can macros also be useful when it comes to this sort of "functional DSLs"?
<beach>
nij: Macros are useful for introducing "syntactic abstractions", i.e., new syntax. You don't need macros if you can express your DSL as a collection of functions with normal function-call semantics. And in cases like that, you can write your DSL in any language you like.
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<nij>
I see. That's my impression yeah. I don't see why macros and DSLs are tided together so much.. at least in many introductory articles.
<nij>
Afterall, macros are for and only for syntactic abstractions.
<beach>
Because, when people say "DSL", they usually mean specific syntax.
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<nij>
Oh, and macros can be nice tools to rewrite the syntax into more lispier ones?
<nij>
Ah, then it makes sense.
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<lotuseater>
yes, they can take anything and transform it :) or when you just not want having to type in so much quotes
<lotuseater>
or eg look at FORMAT, it's a function, that calls the macro FORMATTER, which takes the control-string and transforms that to the corresponding form for using the args
<nij>
I see.
* nij
is in awe.
<beach>
nij: The use of macros to implement a DSL in Common Lisp would be used precisely to make the syntax less Lisp-y. If you want Lisp syntax, just use Common Lisp.
<lotuseater>
or telling you that a symbol can't go into a slot with ~D
<pjb>
beach: in general. But in the case of format, it could be used to make it lispier :-) (format (formatter "Name: (a :width 20) Age: (d :width 3) year(p :with-previous-arg t)(newline)") 'john 99)
<pjb>
s/formatter/lispy-formatter/
<beach>
Sure.
<nij>
pjb is this a real example? It doesn't work for me
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<pjb>
nij: no, it's wishfull programming.
<pjb>
nij: but you can pass your own formatting function to format instead of a format control (format t (function my-formatter) a b c)
<pjb>
format control n. a format string, or a function that obeys the argument conventions for a function returned by the formatter macro. See Section 22.2.1.3 (Compiling Format Strings).
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<phoe>
European Lisp Symposium 2021 is now over and heisig, easye, SAL9000, flip214, and ehuelsmann all deserve a beer! thanks for their support!!
<SAL9000>
<3
<beach>
Thanks to everyone. Fantastic work!!!!!
<beach>
Do we know how many participants there were in the chat(s)?
<beach>
It seemed to me that several new people attended. Perhaps because of the virtual access. But it is good publicity for ELS anyway.
<heisig>
The peak was at 178 participants, I think. Most of the time, we had 120-130 participants.
<beach>
That's very good.
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<Nilby>
Great job everyone.
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<phoe>
heisig: this does not include non-logged-in-people
<phoe>
or people who viewed via VLC/MPV
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<phoe>
so it might be closer to 150 people, though we won't know that for sure
<Gnuxie[m]>
wouldn't you think there are more people who aren't logged in?
<MichaelRaskin>
Is this sum of Twitch + IRC membership?
<phoe>
Gnuxie[m]: I would
<phoe>
but I want to be conservative in my estimates
<phoe>
MichaelRaskin: that's the Twitch viewer count I think
<Gnuxie[m]>
fair
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<heisig>
Yes, that was the Twitch viewer count shown below the video.
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<jmercouris>
is there a way to run SBCL and have it ignore ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf ?
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<loli>
jmercouris: --no-userinit maybe? I know in script mode it does not read the user default config
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<jmercouris>
hm, I think that will just ignore ~/.sbclrc
<jdz>
There's also --no-sysinit
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<jmercouris>
I see, thank you
<jdz>
And I'm pretty sure the source registry thing is use by ASDF.
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<jdz>
In other words you should look at ASDF documentation about how to control it.
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<jmercouris>
OK
<jdz>
But in general why do you have ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ if you don't want it?
<jmercouris>
I'm trying to figure out how to make a NixOS tool work
<jmercouris>
I like having this file, and use it personally
<jmercouris>
however, the tool 'quicklisp-to-nix' breaks when this file is present and populated
<loli>
is it finding the wrong asdf package?
<jmercouris>
Correct, and it is trying to recompile it
<loli>
ahh
<loli>
I've had similar issues with ros
<jmercouris>
and it cannot, because it is trying to recompile in a non-writable directory
<loli>
if you want the right one I often have
<loli>
(push #p"./" asdf:*central-registry*)
<jdz>
Pretty sure for reproducible builds you do not want to read any system or user initfiles, and provide everything on the command line.
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<MichaelRaskin>
The reproducible part does not see the $HOME in the first place
<jdz>
Too bad this will not help with ASDF automatically looking at user initfiles.
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<nij>
Hello! What's the best timer you've used before? I just realize today that a robust timer isn't very easy to design.. currently the best I have is systemd.timer, but it isn't lispy at all.
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<nij>
I should say systemd.timer supports scheduling a job at a certain time, e.g. [2022-01-01 10:53:46]. It saves a comprehensive backlog of states and outputs/errors from the program. If the machine misses, by being off for example, the job, it will launch the job immediately next time the timer starts.
<nij>
(I don't like the last feature by the way.. I think it's better for the system to inform the user.. but not force it happens at a time the user wasn't even aware of.')
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<jdz>
nij: Pretty sure there's an option to control that.
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<jdz>
nij: Persistent.
<jdz>
Actually defaults to false. See systemd.timer(5).
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<nij>
Yes, "Persistent" was what I meant.
<nij>
But.. I hope there's a lispier version of systemd.timer ;)
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<jdz>
What do you mean by that? What does it have to do with lisp?
<lotuseater>
nij: or checkout mcron
<nij>
lotuseater: mcron only recovers from suspended state.
<nij>
afaik it doesn't take care of other edge cases
<nij>
i dunno if it logs everything.. but based on its manual.. no
<nij>
But systemd.timer is something that's "not really needed for service management, but helpful".
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<jdz>
All you talk about here is how you want systemd with lispy syntax, and now object that shepherd is a service manager?
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<jdz>
How is starting (and cleaning up after) services not related to service management?
<nij>
no, not a lispy systemd, but a lispy systemd.timer.
<nij>
(not (eq 'systemd 'systemd.timer)) ;=> t
<jdz>
You can't have "systemd.timer" without "systemd".
<nij>
That's right. But with systemd, you do not really need a systemd.timer. And that's, afaik, the case for shepherd.
<jdz>
You don't really need an OS.
<nij>
It doesn't have a dedicated timer like systemd.
<nij>
jdz: yeah, all i need is pencils and papers!
<jdz>
This does not seem like anything lisp related, so I'll just stop.
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<Nilby>
nij: It sounds like you want an unix operating system controled and configured by Lisp, which is great, but you can't execpt that someone has done it for you already. The closest might be Guix with guile scheme.
<nij>
Nilby: no.. not a unix OS, but a timer.
<nij>
There are actually many attempts out there, including mcron (scheme), cl-cron, clerk.. But they are not a full-fledge timer.
<Nilby>
On the other hand if you just want something to happen at a certain time inside a lisp process, that is not hard. Just use sleep or the system interval timer.
<nij>
But I agree, I cannot expect that someone has done that. I might write my own once I'm convinced there isn't any.
<Nilby>
As far as I know there isn't a Lisp "cron" like thing.
<nij>
mcron, clerk, cl-cron are crons in Lisp.
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<Nilby>
nij: Then you've probably already researched it more than most. It sounds like you might then have, fix up, or make the next best Lisp cron.
<Nilby>
When I want just a simple timer inside a lisp image, I just use a simple macro: (do-at <time>) &
<Nilby>
or rather (do-at (time) <body..>)
<Nilby>
but it's helpful to have a nice date/time parser, and a convenient in-a-thread thing like use "&"
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<Nilby>
schedule-timer is pretty good, and more O/S portable
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<nij>
Right..
<nij>
I guess what's really missing from these timers is the "service managing" part.
<nij>
And so it makes sense why systemd.timer is designed "under" systemd, for the later is a robust service manager.
<nij>
A process, if want to be scheduled robustly, should be first wrapped into a service. Calling a service needs to take care of all issues, including full-logging.
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<motersen>
Hey everyone, I am having trouble with a strange condition/restart/recursion situation.
<motersen>
On CCL this does what I would expect it to. It runs #'always-fail 3 times, then fails. But on SBCL, the value of retries is reset every time the handler is run. Is behaviour in this situation undefined? Am I going about this all wrong?
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<phoe>
hmmmmmm
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<phoe>
the handler should be created once, and it should close over RETRIES
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<phoe>
wait a second
<phoe>
this works for me on SBCL
<Bike>
i get a control overflow.
<phoe>
which sbcl version are you running?
<phoe>
what are your compiler settings?
<Bike>
mine is 2.1.1
<phoe>
(sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy)
<phoe>
I have all default policy and run on 2.1.3
<Bike>
optimize is all 1s
<phoe>
broken on 2.1.0
<phoe>
fixed on 2.1.3
<Bike>
too bad sbcl.org is down so i can't check the changelog.
<|3b|>
Xach: i have some TTF fonts that start contours on a curve control point (so not on-curve-p), which confuses zpb-ttf:do-contour-segments/do-contour-segments*, do you think it would be better to rotate the control points so the contour starts on the curve, or to make d-c-s smarter to handle that case?
* |3b|
thinks adjusting the data to start on the curve would be easier, but also somewhat dislikes changing it from what's stored in the file :/
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<|3b|>
actually i guess fixing it in d-c-s* might not be too hard at the cost of some efficiency when it sees that case, if it just builds a modified copy when needed and uses that with existing code
<Nilby>
|3b|: A long time ago I worked on a TTF rasterizer and there were a number of fixes for degenerate fonts in it, so I guess it's not uncommon. Maybe just make sure to compare the output against other rasterizers.
<|3b|>
Nilby: the font is valid as far as i can tell, it just confuses zpb-ttf
<|3b|>
the points before and after that point are on the curve, and the 3 points together make the desired shape
<Xach>
|3b|: hmm, i'm not really sure.
<|3b|>
hmm, slightly uglier than i thought to fix it that way in d-c-s/d-c-s* since code would have to be duplicated in both
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<Nilby>
Like lisp implemntations, I think font rasterizers sometimes have a hidden consensus of what to do with weird or unspecified input.
<Xach>
i bet there were certain buggy fonts you had to live with because they were common in the world
<|3b|>
in this case "make the curve go through a point that is specified to not be on the curve" is pretty obviously wrong :)
<Xach>
probably that has not changed much
<|3b|>
so more a question of library style than anything specific to fonts in general
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<|3b|>
the font is doing something i might not have expected, but that doesn't seem completely unreasonable having seen it
<python476>
I remember something about MS font handling code that could bring out the entire rendering stack
<python476>
but maybe that says more about MS design than ad-hoc ttf consensus
<moon-child>
microsoft's font renderer was a kernel module
<moon-child>
there's no world in which that's sensible
<Xach>
well, i have the luxury of not needing it to be interactively fast and fit in half a kilobyte and work with buggy files etc
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<|3b|>
hmm, i guess there probably isn't any requirement for there to actually be any explicit on-curve points, is there, so maybe trying to always start on the curve won't be completely correct either
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<agumonkey>
hi
<klltkr>
Hi agumonkey
<agumonkey>
hi klltkr
<agumonkey>
whats up on your side of the quote
<klltkr>
Nothin', just chillin', should go to bed
<agumonkey>
I could say the same
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