<_death>
incidentally, "slhelper" stands for "(Santa|Satan)'s Little Helpers" .. regexes in names are fine :)
<LdBeth>
most of parsing work in AoC can be done with split-sequence
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<_death>
indeed
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<_death>
btw I found another bug, this time in cffi-libffi.. (defcfun foo :string) will try to foreign-string-to-lisp the pointer to the string pointer instead of the string pointer itself... other types may also have this issue, but I fixed it for foreign-string-type at least
<LdBeth>
I'm not familiar with C, but isn't string means a *char?
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<aeth>
char*
* LdBeth
GG
<aeth>
afaik, a string is a char* that starts at the * and ends at the first NUL (0)
<aeth>
this is obviously problematic for many reasons
<_death>
LdBeth: yes, a C string is a pointer to char.. cffi type :string automatically converts between foreign and lisp strings
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<pjb>
LdBeth: I use (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative) :name "ccl-init" :type "lisp") (user-homedir-pathname)) so it works everywhere!
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<pjb>
LdBeth: indeed, you're not familiar with C.
<pjb>
LdBeth: char is not a character type, it's an integer type!!!
<LdBeth>
Wat?
<pjb>
LdBeth: a string is a vector of character. It's way more sophisticated than what C proposes.
<no-defun-allowed>
'<char>' is just syntactic sugar for the integer with the same value as the character's codepoint.
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<LdBeth>
I guess it could have different size from int
<LdBeth>
So it’s not syntactic sugar in that way
<LdBeth>
Also char[] and char * cannot be used interchangeably
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<White_Flame>
is there some sort of asdf extension out there that lets you place dependencies inside the individual .lisp files instead of in the .asd?
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<fe[nl]ix>
White_Flame: no, that would be a bad idea
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<anlsh>
When I do (ql:quickload :alexandria) I get the following error: The name "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0" does not designate any package.
<anlsh>
Any idea what's up?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
White_Flame: doesn't package-inferred-system do something like that?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I have a hack I use occasionally: #.(progn (ql:quickload ...) nil)
<White_Flame>
I mean inter-file dependencies, not inter-system
* no-defun-allowed
waits for fully inferred systems, where hypothetically any time an undefined variable or function is used, its definition is searched for and the file containing its definition is loaded
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<reepca>
weird question - is there a way to make a function binding special?
<beach>
No.
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<reepca>
good to know
<beach>
You would have to do it yourself, like (unwind-protect ... (let ((old (fdefinition ...))) (setf (fdefinition ...) #'...) etc.
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<ggole>
Make a regular special binding and funcall it?
<Shinmera>
dynamically bound functions easily lead to spaghetti
<Shinmera>
so going through the special binding to mark it up seems like a good idea.
<reepca>
aye, just a little tedious to go around swapping out (read-byte ...) with (funcall *read-byte* ...) because I didn't read and memorize the full spec before I started writing
<reepca>
(to clarify, full spec here means the thing I'm implementing, not the CL spec)
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<Shinmera>
also, it seems to me that you would very likely be better off with GFs than dynamically bound functions.
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<Shinmera>
as in, define the generic function protocol, then pass around the object that implements it.
<anlsh>
How do I get frame restarts working in sly/slime? Every time I press the "r" key I just get a message about the frame being compiled, and I'm not sure what to change to fix that
<reepca>
does it work to have a generic function with the same name as an existing CL function?
<Shinmera>
same name but different symbol, sure.
<Shinmera>
same symbol, no.
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<reepca>
in other words, it'd have to be in a different package?
<Shinmera>
yes
<beach>
anlsh: "working"? To invoke the restart, you just type its number.
<Shinmera>
or click the label
<Shinmera>
or press 'a' for abort, or 'c', for continue.
<ck_>
Shinmera: you're running irclog.tymoon.eu, is that right? Are you open to a small feature request?
<Shinmera>
Sure
<ck_>
I'd sometimes like to switch channels at or around the timestamp I'm currently looking at
<White_Flame>
pjb: found your page for it, but I'm not sure how it applies
<Shinmera>
ck_: And I assume just editing the URL is not convenient enough?
<ck_>
I know it's as easy as editing the url, so it's maybe not even ..
<Shinmera>
hah
<pjb>
White_Flame: the driver is tools/make-depends.sh
<pjb>
White_Flame: it has probably bit-rotten a little, since I don't use it anymore. Putting dependencies in asd files is better.
<Shinmera>
I could maybe turn the channel header into an option list instead to do the switching. I'll think about it.
<ck_>
well, the first thing I looked for was a time input field at the channel view, to navigate to a point in history that way. I'll just add a bookmarklet to get there quicker
<pjb>
White_Flame: but the principle applies: scan the files to build the dependencies yourself, and generate an asd file.
<ck_>
thanks for entertaining the suggestion in any case!
<Shinmera>
ck_: The software running is open source too, so if you have time you could have a go at fixing it yourself. https://github.com/shirakumo/chatlog
<ck_>
Shinmera: oh, that's nice, thank you. I'll send a pull request your way soon then.
<Shinmera>
Time input and channel switch would be nice to have, yes.
<ck_>
consider it done
<ck_>
just don't consider it done .. soon ;)
<Shinmera>
Time input did exist in a previous version, but it became too cluttered, especially for mobile, so I removed it in the streamlining process.
<Shinmera>
Sure.
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<boeg>
So I'm trying to figure out how systems and packages works, and I've created a package.lisp now and a *name*.asd. Now, I normally just use sly in emacs to run my common lisp and manually use quickload to load libraries, but now I have defined a dependency in the asdf file, so my question is, how do I use this in sly so it takes care of loading things defined with asdf?
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<pjb>
boeg: systems and packages are orthogonal.
<boeg>
pjb: right
<pjb>
boeg: systems define a set of files, and their dependencies, so that asdf can compile and load them in the right order.
<pjb>
boeg: those files may contain package definition forms, 0, 1 or more.
<boeg>
yes
<pjb>
boeg: those files may contain in-package forms, so that their symbols are interned in those packages.
<boeg>
So package.lisp contains defpackage and then in a another file i have an in-package call for the package defined in package.lisp
<pjb>
boeg: this may be packages defined in a file of the system, or not. You could (defun cl-user::foo () 'foo) thus defining a function named by a symbol interned in the cl-user package, for example.
<boeg>
when i then compile and load in sly, it says it doesn't designate any package
<pjb>
boeg: so if you want to define your own packages, and put them in a package.lisp file, this file needs to be loaded before the other files are compiled or loaded, so their in-package forms will find the packages you defined in the package.lisp file.
<boeg>
ah
<pjb>
So for each file, you will have a dependency such as: (:file "foo" :depends-on ("package" …))
<boeg>
that worked
<boeg>
yes, i have that and it works now
<boeg>
next problem is what about my dependency on "split-sequence"?
<pjb>
boeg: remember, asd files are just like Makefiles, they define dependencies between your files (and also with other systems).
<boeg>
I have defined it in my asd file
<pjb>
boeg: this is a system dependency. You define it with :depends-on in the defsystem form.
<boeg>
yes, i have that i believe in my asd file
<boeg>
do i just load the asd file manually in sly too?
<pjb>
Once this dependency is established, your files can access directly anything that is defined by those systems, since they will have been loaded before the current system.
<pjb>
boeg: if you make your asd systema vailable to quicklisp (eg. putting them or a symlink in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ ) then you can just use quicklisp for your system like for the others.
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<pjb>
The advantage of using quicklisp, is that if you're missing a dependent system, quicklisp will download and install it automatically.
<boeg>
oh, so I make a symlink in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ to my .asd file that has a dependency on split-sequence
<pjb>
to the directory containing your .asd file.
<boeg>
and then i manually in sly load the .asd file, then package.lisp and then i rock?
<boeg>
ah, the directory, gotcha
<pjb>
then you just use (ql:quickload :your-system).
<boeg>
oh
<boeg>
alright
<pjb>
No need to loald the .asd file directly or any other file. quickload will do everything.
<boeg>
let me give it a try
<boeg>
pjb: does it matter how deep the .asd file is relative to the symlink? Could I for example symlink to ~/projects where the .asd file is in ~/projects/../*.asd ?
<pjb>
boeg: no, you can have subdirectories in local-projects.
<boeg>
alright, thanks
<pjb>
in some cases, quicklisp doesn't discover them immediately. You can force it with (ql:register-local-projects)
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<boeg>
alright, it seems to work this far
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<boeg>
hmm, so how do I call a function :D
<boeg>
I load my system, seems to be fine, then I load a file I'm working on and call a function just like (my-function) which usually works but now it doesn't
<boeg>
says common-lisp-user::day06 is undefined
<boeg>
I have probably set things up wrongly
<pjb>
You must use the name of the function, which is a symbol interned in some package. You need to know this package.
<pjb>
If you have a in-package form before the form where the name of the function is interned, then it's interned in that package.
<pjb>
not in cl-user.
<boeg>
so the package is named ... well i have (in-package :aoc2019.day06) at the top, and function is called day06
<pjb>
(aoc2019.day06::day06)
<boeg>
ah!
<pjb>
perhaps you exported "DAY06" from the package named "AOC2019.DAY06", in which case you can use: (aoc2019.day06:day06) or (use-package :aoc2019.day06) and (day06)
<boeg>
ah, yes, makes sense
<boeg>
thanks
<pjb>
For example, you could define a asd system aoc2019 dependent on all the aoc systems, with a aoc2019 package that would use all the aoc2019.day?? packages, so that (in-package :aoc2019) you could call directly all the (day01) .. (day31) functions.
<boeg>
something is weird though, if I remove the "in-package" and do as I use to, my function gives one result and if I go about it with asdf and so on, call it with (aoc2019.day06::day06) it gives a completely other result
<pjb>
boeg: if you're lost you can use (let ((*package* (find-package "KEYWORD"))) (apropos "day")) to find what package the day symbols are interned in.
<boeg>
maybe thats a good setup yes
<pjb>
boeg: your functions may depend on the run-time package if they use READ or INTERN etc.
<boeg>
i don't directly use those no
<pjb>
boeg: it's not a good idea in that case to let the run-time package up to the user. You would have to bind the *package* at run-time.
<boeg>
I'm just gonna debug, 2 sec
<pjb>
You may also depend on other variables such as *print-…* or *read-…*; you can get a specific setting with (with-standard-io-syntax …) or otherwise code to avoid depending on them, or set them to specific values.
<pjb>
For example, (setf *read-base* 8.) or (setf *read-base* 16.) could break a lot of program using numeric input…
<boeg>
but I don't understand ... How are are the functions loaded differently depending on if I use asdf or just manually load my .lisp file?
<pjb>
If your specifications specifies base ten, then your program should contain a (let ((*read-base* 10.)) … (read) …)
<boeg>
It's not the input - that's the same in both cases, so it must be something else
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<boeg>
ah wait, I actually do use (intern)
<pjb>
boeg: they're not loaded differently, they're loaded with load, in the current *package* and *readtable* by default. Perhaps asdf sets the current *package* to something specific different than your current *package* in the REPL, but it's up to your files to contain in-package forms to specify which *package* must be used to intern the symbols in your sources.
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<pjb>
You can use the second parameter: (intern name "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE")
<pjb>
For user input, you can (delete-package "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE") (make-package "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE" :use '()) at the start of the program to clean things up.
<boeg>
and "MY-RUNTIME-PACKAGE" should be "AOC2019.DAY6" ?
<pjb>
perhaps.
<pjb>
It depends what you are reading.
<boeg>
right
<pjb>
It may be a good idea to have different packages for the program and for user's symbols.
<boeg>
give me a second, have to see if i understand :P
<pjb>
Where is this aoc 2019?
<pjb>
got it.
<pjb>
you could use a temporary package named AOC2019.DAY6.PLANETS-XXX to read the planet names.
<pjb>
well to INTERN the planet names.
<boeg>
but
<boeg>
if I just wanted to have intern use the current aoc2019.day6 package, i should just give the second argument "AOC2019.day6" ?
<pjb>
alternatively, since you need to intern the planet names only for EQ hash-tables, etc, you could just use make-symbol instead of intern.
<boeg>
as in ... make the symbol available to the current package?
<pjb>
Ie. not interning the planet names in any package.
<pjb>
planet names are not program identifiers. They don't belong to the package where you intern your program symbols.
<boeg>
hmm ok
<boeg>
well it does make sense
<boeg>
I don't actually need to use intern
<pjb>
Well, if you use make-symbol you will have to unify them yourself, so better use a temporary package for the planet names.
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<boeg>
it was just a quick way to make a case statement where I test on a string work
<boeg>
So I just intern't the strings
<boeg>
just four different strings, so it wasn't gonna bloat the "symbol registry" but yeah, probably a bad decision
<pjb>
You will have to intern them in a equal or equalp hash-table to find them again (there are several occurences of a single planet name).
<pjb>
boeg: who knows if they don't have a test file with 100,000 planet names?
<pjb>
or more.
<boeg>
yeah
<boeg>
i'm rewriting it to get rid of intern now
<pjb>
create a hash-table, setf gethash the strings, delete the hash-table, vs create a package, intern the string, deletel the package…
<pjb>
The only thing is that you want to generate a unique package name in case your program is run in parallel in different threads.
<kmeow>
what's the right way to export a struct from a package? I'm missing the slot symbols for its constructor
<pjb>
Of course, to ensure thread safety a lock would be needed while generating the unique name.
<pjb>
in the case of mkupack, it's an interactive function, so we assume the user doesn't call it from threads.
<boeg>
pjb: well, actually, it wasn't that complicated
<pjb>
ok
<boeg>
pjb: I had just made a stupid use-case of intern
<boeg>
I could simplify the code now that I understand objects better, get it with `elt` and use case to match on it
<boeg>
instead of creatings symbols and matching on them
<boeg>
it works now
<boeg>
thank you for explaining things to me :)
<pjb>
;-)
<boeg>
well wtf
<boeg>
now I tried to use use-package
<boeg>
If I do (aoc2019.day6::day6) it works, if I do (day6) it doesn't
<boeg>
gives the wrong input from befire
<boeg>
before*
<pjb>
use-package is for compilation-time (or the REPL). not for run-time. For run-time, you would just bind *package* (let ((*package* my-runtime-package)) (read))
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<pjb>
or (intern name my-runtime-package)
<pjb>
perhaps you have tqo day6
<pjb>
(apropos "day6")
<pjb>
s/q/w/
<pjb>
bbl
<boeg>
bye
<_death>
kmeow: you cannot export a struct from a package.. all you can do is export symbols, so export make-struct, struct-foo, struct-bar, etc.
<kmeow>
Ohhh
<kmeow>
how would you export the symbols used with a struct constructor, in particular?
<kmeow>
for something like (defstruct astruct a b c) I've been using (make-astruct :a val1 :b val2 :c val3)
<_death>
those are usually keyword symbols (i.e. symbols in the keyword package).. symbols in the keyword package are automatically exported, so they can use them from anywhere (i.e. they are global)
<_death>
:a is a shortcut for keyword:a
<kmeow>
sbcl is giving me warnings like " :STATE is not a known argument keyword."
<_death>
well, astruct has no state slot
<kmeow>
that was just an example
<_death>
if your struct has a state slot, the default constructor function will take a :state keyword argument
<kmeow>
yeah
<kmeow>
which sbcl will do for it in the same file without complaint
<kmeow>
god, I must have had the keyword in the wrong set of parens
<kmeow>
ty
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<jackdaniel>
galdor: see sbcl documentation if you want something what sustained the test of implementing it
<Shinmera>
There's also a test suite in the trivial-package-local-nicknames repo.
<galdor>
so the spec is dead :/
<jackdaniel>
qutie a statement
<galdor>
if implementations do their thing and the spec isn't maintained, then yes the spec is dead
<galdor>
I'm just trying to get a feel of the state of CL in 2019 to see if it makes sense for me to continue investing time and energy in it for my projects
<galdor>
it's quite sad
<jackdaniel>
|3b|: could you copy relevant parts of sbcl documentation to your repo to make galdor satisfied (alternatively less sorrowful)?
<galdor>
I appreciate the gesture, I can read the sbcl documentation :)
<galdor>
it's not the problem
<Shinmera>
then what is
<jackdaniel>
I might have been a little ironic here; needless to say I don't agree with your judgement of "CL state"
<galdor>
from what I understand, ownership of the CL standard is complicated, which pretty much guarantees that there will never be a new version
<Shinmera>
ok, so?
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<galdor>
this is disappointing, but could be worked around if there was a way to build some kind of consensus around update documents which will be adopted by major implementations
<MichaelRaskin>
I think, say, MOP work went without needing it be in _CL_ standard
<galdor>
something such as SRFI for Scheme
<jackdaniel>
local package nicknames are adopted by major implementations and they all follow what is documented in sbcl manual
<beach>
galdor: ANSI owns the standard. Not complicated at all.
<jackdaniel>
mop is another example
* jackdaniel
drops from this discussion, santa has came!
<beach>
galdor: People use languages without a standard every day.
<Shinmera>
galdor: People have done this, and nothing has come of it.
<galdor>
it would be nice if local nicknames where based on documents and not on an implementation
<galdor>
I understand why it does not happen
<Shinmera>
then write that document.
<Shinmera>
make it happen.
<galdor>
does not mean I have to like it
<galdor>
I was thinking about it
<MichaelRaskin>
Given that other implementations took SBCL _document_
<galdor>
I'd volunteer for a patch to ASDF to remove the warning (I really don't like how complex ASDF has become, but afaik there aren't credible alternatives, a bit like CFFI)
<galdor>
and could your patch be merged to the official sbcl repository?
<_death>
it's more problematic than that.. if a patch is to be made, then it should be made in the asdf repository and vendors should then take it from there.. but asdf is not something vendors care to update, for good reasons
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<scymtym>
galdor: asdf is still maintained. primarily by rpg but with help from fare as far as i know
<_death>
it reminds me of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/sysdef-spec.txt .. there should be a spec and vendors should be free to implement it themselves or use some existing implementation
<Shinmera>
Either that or the build system should be entirely separate.
<galdor>
apparently the primary repository is still github.com/fare/asdf
<galdor>
it feels to me lots of people agree this warning is annoying and useless, but it seems no one has the authority to fix it
<Shinmera>
Just requires someone to take the time to go and actually write the code.
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<Bike>
wow, ccl has everything but sequences, huh?
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<Shinmera>
phoe said he might consider tackling sequences once my trivial package has a test suite
<Shinmera>
Clasp is also looking really good considering how young it is :)
<Bike>
yes, i am great, how nice of you to notice
<Shinmera>
I think heisig is also working on sequences for sicl
<Bike>
i've been talking about that with beach, too
<Bike>
...i should maybe coordinate with heisig a bit.
<Shinmera>
I think having stuff like UTF-8 strings using sequences is really exciting.
<Shinmera>
Thinking around that kinda stuff, I wonder how many implementations offer hash tables with custom tests.
<Bike>
unfortunately they don't work with string= or anything
<Shinmera>
Yeah. Still really cool to have it at all.
<Bike>
oh, that's not in your portability thing. wasn't there a library for that? let me see
<Shinmera>
I only included what I could think of, and the little some people reminded me of.
<Bike>
there is a CDR but no library i can see
<Shinmera>
If there is something the page is missing do let me know.
<Shinmera>
Ah.
<Bike>
sbcl supports an extension for this, no idea if it matches the CDR, dunno about other implementations
<Bike>
clasp doesn't ;(
<Shinmera>
yet :)
<Bike>
yet.
<Bike>
looks like ccl supports it with a different interface
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<Bike>
hash tables might be kind of weird portability-library-wise, since there's this extension and there's the weakness extension
<Shinmera>
weakness is handled by trivial garbage, but yeah, combining the two would produce overlap.
<Shinmera>
or rather, uh, the absence of overlap?
<Bike>
yeah that's what i mean. trivial garbage has make-weak-hash-table, which probably doesn't support custom hashing
<Bike>
maybe it does if it applies cl:make-hash-table with the original arguments...
<Bike>
could work, could work. sorta
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<MichaelRaskin>
Shinmera: this table is not all the coordination necessary
<MichaelRaskin>
hu.dwim.walker rots, and it's because package names and layout change (apparently without any change that would be visible in the — definitely nice and useful — table you keep)
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<Shinmera>
I was being hyperbolic anyway
<Shinmera>
If you notice a discrepancy, by all means send a patch or let me know what needs changing.
<MichaelRaskin>
I _think_ that the changes breaking the walker did not take anything away, so I don't have any changes in terms of the table. Anyway, I gave up and wrote Agnostic-Lizard.
<MichaelRaskin>
But my point is that code existing is not the only thing to go, coordination is more for catching up with JavaScript in terms of feature probing, not for pressuring people into writing and debugging code they don't care about
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<oni-on-ion>
question on portability of CL.
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<oni-on-ion>
for haskell standard, let's say Haskell '98 or Prime, most use GHC as the crazy-advanced hyper-optimizing supercompiler. this is a bit of a lock-in to implementation, aside from some outliers whom still are based on GHC
<oni-on-ion>
now for CL, what is the usefulness of adhering to standard, if most cases are using SBCL ?
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<beach>
If you are using only SBCL and you don't care about other implementations, and you believe SBCL will be around for some time, then you do what you wnat.
<beach>
want.
<oni-on-ion>
and to add a side question, is anyone using CL mainly for portability ?
<oni-on-ion>
thats true
<pjb>
oni-on-ion: none. But then, go to #sbcl.
<pjb>
oni-on-ion: however, there are problems with monoculture.
<oni-on-ion>
nah #sbcl is mostly about compiler internals afaik. not quite that learned yet
<beach>
oni-on-ion: There are platforms on which SBCL does not exist.
<oni-on-ion>
pjb, because i am thinking, emacs lisp is surely the most "portable" kind of lisp. i dont think anyone is choosing CL specifically to be portable. long-lasting (stability) strength of CL is not considered however
<pjb>
oni-on-ion: If you write conforming CL code, you get de-jure portability: you can run on all conforming CL implementations!
<beach>
oni-on-ion: I believe Android is one.
<oni-on-ion>
beach, yeah, just ECL still so far there
<_death>
oni-on-ion: most, but not all.. and even if SBCL was the only implementation around, the standard keeps interfaces stable
<oni-on-ion>
pjb, de-jure?
<pjb>
oni-on-ion: CLHS
<beach>
oni-on-ion: Type "define de jure" to Google.
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<oni-on-ion>
oh! cool =) i was thinking "de jour" as french (like soup de jour)
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<_death>
many standards end up being de jour
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<_death>
(or, du jour)
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<Shinmera>
oni-on-ion: I spend most of my time writing libraries. I want those to be useful for as many people as possible, so in order to account for as many use-cases as possible, I care about them being portable.
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<Shinmera>
beach: SBCL runs on android, just not in a convenient way to be useful for writing Android apps.
<beach>
Ah, OK. Thanks.
<oni-on-ion>
Shinmera, ah yeah =) my short-sighted worry is nothing changes under me, so i can work on code base until i die. like say haskell or ocaml or web code wont work after a few months
<beach>
#lisp seems to be the channel of extremes. One minute we have an opinion insisting on an update to the standard for package-local nicknames. The next minute we have an opinion questioning the usefulness of the standard.
<oni-on-ion>
to be clear, to me the CL standard is the most useful of all standards, in programming
<oni-on-ion>
but i was curious how much the portability factor across implementations is relied upon -- Shinmera makes a good point. i wasn't thinking about apis/libraries, just as personal/proprietary code base substrate
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<MichaelRaskin>
With personal code, you sometimes can use the differences in what different implementations complain about to clean up some of the corner cases
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<oni-on-ion>
true; ive seen some doing this. but i've also seen some giving up on other impl's and sticking with one after giving up supporting the rest (im looking at you aeth =)
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<vivit>
When I attempt to quickload CLSQL-SQLITE3, I get the following error: 'Component CLSQL-UFFI-SYSTEM::UFFI does not match version 2.0, required by #<SYSTEM "clsql-uffi">'
<vivit>
The only information I can find online about this specific error seems to be one where the user apparently was having problems because he was using CLisp despite CLSQL not fully supporting CLisp, but I'm using SBCL
<vivit>
What should I do here? I'm completely stumped
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<kmeow>
is that the sqlite package?
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<vivit>
Is what the sqlite package?
<vivit>
CLSQL-SQLITE?
<vivit>
s/E/E3/
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<vivit>
It's the asdf system for sqlite version 3
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<kmeow>
I get the same error when I try to (ql:quickload "clsql-sqlite")
<kmeow>
(ql:quickload "sqlite") completes without error, though idk if those are at all related
<jackdaniel>
kmeow: before clsql load cffi
<jackdaniel>
then you will have cffi-uffi-compat loaded instead of long deprecated uffi
<reepca>
The :from-end keyword arguments in the sequence functions... I thought I had a good intuitive understanding of what they did ("start searching from the end"), but now I'm reading the hyperspec entry of POSITION and apparently my understanding was backwards?
<reepca>
"The position returned is the index within sequence of the leftmost (if from-end is true) or of the rightmost (if from-end is false) element that satisfies the test"
<reepca>
but the first example contradicts that, because the element at index 4 is not the leftmost element that satisfies the test...
<reepca>
sometimes I think sbcl is too clever for its own good. It can figure out that the last iteration of a loop will always cause a type error and therefore delete the code after the loop as unreachable, but can't tell me why it deleted it and save me the time of analyzing it myself
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<reepca>
or maybe it would at a higher (optimize (debug ...)) setting?
<jackdaniel>
try safety 3 debug 3
<reepca>
put the declaration at the top of the function in question, it still just says "deleting unreachable code" and nothing else
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<jackdaniel>
it is easier to do something than explain clearly why it has been done (in compilers), so I suppose nobody bothered to implement explanation function
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<reepca>
it would actually be pretty interesting to try to implement a compiler that focuses on being able to answer "why" questions.
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<edgar-rft>
Hi compiler, why do I exist?
<ck_>
syntax error at line 1
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<oni-on-ion>
aha
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<aeth>
reepca: Well, wouldn't the "why" just generally be proving, while showing sufficient steps, that some optimized form is equivalent to the original? So it sounds possible.
<aeth>
For the unreachable code example, it would show you why the eliminated branch(es) can't be reached.
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<jackdaniel>
it would be definetely interesting and it is not unknown that it is :)
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<jackdaniel>
n.b same goes for the systems which make automated decisions (be it machine learning or expert systems) -- a very appealing features is to make these things to answer why they made some choice (i.e provide a rationale which makes sense to human being)
<jackdaniel>
but it is a hard problem to solve
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<jackdaniel>
(especially the part about making sense to people)
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<jackdaniel>
I've applied a loose meaning of "hard"; it is different hard for comiplers and different hard for ML. The former is that making good meaningful compiler messages with source location (and visualisation) requires a lot of thought, providing rationale for decisions is a few steps harder
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<oni-on-ion>
depends on the question we ask (how we retrieve the accrued data)
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<pjb>
jackdaniel: natural intelligence just lie about the reason why they made decisions.
<pjb>
We just provide a-posteriori justifications.s
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<didi>
So I'm lazy. Is it bad to create input streams with `make-string-input-stream' and never close them?
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<aeth>
didi: with-input-from-string should be equivalent, and it closes it
<aeth>
well, equivalent if you're binding your make-string-input-stream in e.g. a let
<didi>
aeth: I know, but it's SO MUCH MORE typing.
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<aeth>
didi: there should be an autocomplete somewhere, but I've never needed to install one
<aeth>
alternatively, you can define your own macro
<phoe>
no idea if/how this will get pulled upstream. Feel free to cherrypick that commit onto Clozure/ccl and rebuild.
<phoe>
Or use my fork that I aggressively clean and fix nowadays. It's a staging area before committing this all upstream, but I have Travis hooked up to ensure that I don't fuck something up bad while working on it.
<galdor>
oh thank you!
<galdor>
mind if I open a PR for this patch and try to get it merged?
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<phoe>
galdor: sure, just take this patch only. This commit is on top of 55 other commits.
<phoe>
...that aren't in CCL upstream just yet.
<galdor>
ok
<Bike>
ccl seems to lave a lot unexported...
<phoe>
Bike: CCL is used to keeping literally everything and the kitchen sink in #<Package CCL> and then not exporting it and using :: and ::% to reach it.
<Bike>
rite
<phoe>
That's one of the things that trip me up about it.
<phoe>
And one of the things that definitely need to be changed once someone throws enough attention at it.
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