<MichaelRaskin>
It makes _no_ sense not to have a defined type for env, but oh well
<MichaelRaskin>
(I do think Common Lisp standard is a great document; I just don't like what has happenned to some specific places)
<makomo>
ah, you were talking in general about the environment objects
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I make choices because I cannot trust generic env objects
<makomo>
yeah, i would be very happy if we had some extra tools and were able to write a portable code walker
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<makomo>
but it is what it is :D
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<MichaelRaskin>
We could write a CDR
<MichaelRaskin>
My paper and slides list what is actually needed — it's not that much
<MichaelRaskin>
implementations _might_ have mercy
<makomo>
i haven't looked into CDRs that much. i assume they're something like scheme's SRFIs, but informal?
<makomo>
yeah, might :-)
<p_l>
some implementations can be extended without opening the source code
<p_l>
though I guess getting deep into compiler might be a problem
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, the talk was well-received, the walker is used by Petalisp… And I don't need anything that compilers don't have to have internally anyway
<MichaelRaskin>
I don't want extensions, I want the function to extract the list of names from environment — preferably based on the same code compiler uses
<MichaelRaskin>
Probably
<makomo>
"The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org." but the link is dead
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes
<MichaelRaskin>
Sigh
<makomo>
yeah... :(
<MichaelRaskin>
Actually, the project has all the content
<MichaelRaskin>
On Common-Lisp.net
<MichaelRaskin>
The homepage link should lead to common-lisp.net but wasn't updated
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: and getting a list of *just* the names, without any definitions is enough? is that because you can always use MACRO-FUNCTION to get at the definition?
<p_l>
MichaelRaskin: I was thinking of "actually getting the right internal APIs from compiler"
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<MichaelRaskin>
p_l: I want accepted names for stuff, I explicitly don't want "user-agent sniffing", and I am afraid of trying to call random internal functions and seeing what breaks
<MichaelRaskin>
makomo: see macroexpand-1, it should be not too hard to extract a function «macro-definition» out of that
<MichaelRaskin>
Than you can use it as macrop without _calling_ the expander
<p_l>
MichaelRaskin: I was thinking more in style of (old?) package-conduits system, which provided a simple API while handling the implementation-specific ways to get conduits working
<MichaelRaskin>
Calling macroexpand (not even -1) as macrop is definitely overkill
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<MichaelRaskin>
p_l: trivial- wrappers have benefits and drawbacks
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<p_l>
MichaelRaskin: true - I just hope to maybe one day get an initiative of moving code from trivial- wrappers (with apropriate license) to inside implementations
<makomo>
MichaelRaskin: hm, would that involve *macroexpand-hook* tricks or?
<makomo>
maybe i misunderstood
<MichaelRaskin>
makomo: no-no
<MichaelRaskin>
There is metaenv-macroexpand-1
<MichaelRaskin>
It finds macro definition and applies it
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<makomo>
oh, you were talking about AL's macroexpand-1
<makomo>
i see
<MichaelRaskin>
I am not factoring out these two steps now
<MichaelRaskin>
I should sleep already
<makomo>
same :-)
<makomo>
right, this relies on macro-function as i expected
<makomo>
so just being able to list the names stored within the environment object would be enough
<MichaelRaskin>
Of course, performance would be much better if I also had with-augmented-environment
<makomo>
yeah
<MichaelRaskin>
Which compiler almost certainly has inside
<makomo>
from what i've seen, hu.dwim.walker takes the approach of having a small independent with-augmented-environment interface and then various implementation-specific parts which just implement the interface
<makomo>
i wonder how bitrotten it is and if at all
<MichaelRaskin>
Yep, and they support around 1.5 implementations
<makomo>
LOL :')
<MichaelRaskin>
Look up my local-variable-code-walker talk
<makomo>
i remember watching it but i don't rmemeber the details
<MichaelRaskin>
I used hu.dwim.walker to move forward quickly, but I have some regrets about its state — and the slides and paper do list them
<makomo>
ah, ok
<MichaelRaskin>
The state of h.d.w is basically why agnostic lizard is agnostic
<makomo>
it would be interesting to see what exactly changed over time in those implementations that caused hu.dwim.walker to become bitrotten
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<makomo>
i saw that hdw has some tests. do those not help to prevent bitrot?
<MichaelRaskin>
tests only help with bitrot if someone runs them!
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, 2016 talk is local-variable-debug-wrapper
<MichaelRaskin>
And indeed unlike ICALP my surname identifies me
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<makomo>
jeez, just to run the tests i need a crapload of dependencies
<makomo>
one even needs grovelling
<makomo>
which failed
<MichaelRaskin>
Ahaha
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, it is hu.dwim
<MichaelRaskin>
They do ship a ton of libraries
<makomo>
DWIM indeed :')
<MichaelRaskin>
And do use them
<MichaelRaskin>
Grovelling is a bit too much maybe
<MichaelRaskin>
OK, any reason why I should not shut down my laptop right now and put it into backpack (then fall asleep)?
<makomo>
guess not. it's time for me to crash as well :-)
<MichaelRaskin>
Good night everyone in approximately comparable timezones.
<makomo>
i'll have more questions soon :-)
<makomo>
night
<MichaelRaskin>
(And good rest of the day to the rest of the world)
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<coetry>
hello friends, i'm running slime and trying to execute the following function, but always get this error: `Process inferior-lisp<1> stopped (tty input): 21`
<beach>
And you don't even have a good refactoring tool since Second Climacs is not working yet. :)
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<loke>
beach: indeed. :-)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Isn't MAXIMA atypical because (at least some of) the developers prefer GCL?
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the dvelopmers use SBCL
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: The developers want to preserve the ability to build on all CL's. Some work was done recently to make it run properly on ABCL too.
<beach>
And preferring GCL is one thing. Preferring non-conforming code is another.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hmm, which was the project that insisted on avoiding CLOS because of GCL
<no-defun-allowed>
MaximaOnAndroid will be more fun then with ABCL.
<loke>
It can be self-defeating though, since you have distributions shipping Maxima built with GCL and CLISP. Those two being the worst choices.
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: CLOS is OK. It's not used much.
<beach>
fiddlerwoaroof: Wow, that would be some twisted reasoning.
<no-defun-allowed>
Not that Maxima on a phone is cool enough, but having the CL in the application instead of being an external binary will be interesting.
<loke>
(gcl has clos last time I checked)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I thought it was a relatively recent addition, though
<p_l>
fiddlerwoaroof: maxima's history with GCL goes the other way around
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: My involvement in Maxima is a recent addition too, so I'm not sure what happened in the past.
<p_l>
fiddlerwoaroof: a significant driver of GCL development was "to make maxima compile and work on it"
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ok, cool, I wonder which project I'm thinking of
<loke>
SBCL is by far the best platform for Maxima, and I haven't seen anyone arguing otherwise.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
(if any)
<aeth>
fiddlerwoaroof: I'd assume Maxima developers would prefer SBCL (like loke said) because SBCL seems to be the CL for numerical stuff at the moment.
<p_l>
So, IIRC, things that weren't used by maxima kinda got less care (which didn't help with the GCL deciding to concentrate on CLtL instead of ANSI)
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: I do recall some issue with CLOS and Maxima where GCL was mentioned, way back many years ago. Long before I cared about the project.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
aeth: yeah, I thought there was something about GCL or clisp because they were GNU projects
<fiddlerwoaroof>
/shrug
<loke>
fiddlerwoaroof: Possibly. Maxima isn't a GNU projec thtough.
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<loke>
Anyway, following the maxima mailing list shows that there is a very large number of non-lispers, and even non-programmer people using it. That makes that project somewhat different from most other Lisp projects.
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<Nomenclatura>
maxima is lispy?
<slac-in-the-box>
I chose sbcl because I like typing (save-lisp-and-die); it felt like swearing...
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I thought it was a relatively recent addition, though
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ok, cool, I wonder which project I'm thinking of
<fiddlerwoaroof>
(if any)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
aeth: yeah, I thought there was something about GCL or clisp because they were GNU projects
<fiddlerwoaroof>
/shrug
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
does anyone still use poplog?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
it sounds interesting
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<slac-in-the-box>
weird: slime made exwm crash... started it again, and then slime worked, so I could see that (sb-ext: sa-l-a TAB..) expanded into (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die) Thanks, btw, it still feels like swearing, but with less typing :)
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<no-defun-allowed>
how is salad swearing?
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<slac-in-the-box>
Just feels like when I finish something complicated, I get to tell it to go die :)
<moldybits>
thinking out loud. i'm parsing bit stream. i think i'll have pairs of procedures, e.g. parse-int and read-int. the read-int does the stream thing, and parse-int puts it into a tree, and maybe a sequential listing.
<shka_>
not the best name for parse-int
<shka_>
but ok
<shka_>
what else?
<moldybits>
i don't have a question :)
<moldybits>
i'm trying to translate/understand some C code
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<moldybits>
i'm just starting to get an idea of how it works, and i want to start thinking about what kind of approach to take
<shka_>
ok
<moldybits>
i did make a horrible macro (--doc-- <expression> :context :read-version-number) and then had it print something like "INT 1010 (2) ; verion 2"
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<moldybits>
i got really messy and i want to do something less stupid now :)
<Xach>
no-defun-allowed: i don't know - youtube search should say
<moldybits>
i made that macro so that i didn't have to clutter up the reading code with printing. i just made a call to --doc-- and put the printing code somewhere else
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<jmercouris>
I have a function, I want to verify that it is invoked with an argument, how can I do that?
<jmercouris>
This is within the context of a FiveAM Test
<jmercouris>
I don't want to actually invoke the function though, as it has a side effect of sending out an email
<jmercouris>
I have some answers in mind, just trying to avoid the XY problem
<jmercouris>
s/invoked with an argument/invoked with a lambda list of known values/
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<shka_>
jmercouris: mock
<jmercouris>
Yes, which library
<_death>
jmercouris: a naive answer would be to think about some kind of a "mock".. e.g., using a dry-run variable, or another layer of indirection.. additionally, it is quite possible that a unit test is not the right level for testing this functionality
<_death>
moldybits: do you know about TRACE? you can also separate these concerns in other ways.. for example have a debugging-mixin that uses :around methods to print results, or you may be satisfied with reading into a structure (the tree) and afterwards using a function to print it
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<jmercouris>
_death: how do you verify if a function has been called without using mocks?
<jmercouris>
so I do have a (if (testp) (test-form) (normal-form)) but, now I have a problem
<jmercouris>
I invoke the function within a bordeaux thread
<jmercouris>
and I need to know the value the function was invoked with
<jmercouris>
had I mocked that function with something like mockingbird
<jmercouris>
I could verify if a function was called with what arguments
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<_death>
I've already said that unit testing may not be the right level.. is it really important to verify that that particular function is called, or is it more about verifying that an email is sent
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<jmercouris>
so what, you would write an integration test instead?
<_death>
seems more reasonable
<jmercouris>
hmm
<jmercouris>
more to think about...
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<pjb>
jmercouris: are you testing an email system?
<jmercouris>
not exactly, I'm using cl-smtp
<jmercouris>
I'm just testing that I send a user a recovery password with the correct pin
<pjb>
Yes.
<jmercouris>
I wanted to verify the functions I wrapped cl-smtp in is getting the correct values, as the ones stored in the database
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<pjb>
Once upon a time, I wrote tests for a SMTP system, in emacs lisp, where I composed and sent emails, and checked the logs of the smtp server to verify their reception and processing.
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<pjb>
An alternative, if you want to check that you sent specific data, and it's well received, is to put an alias to forward the received messages to a script where you can analyse them.
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<dim>
use OpenSTMPd (or any other MTA really) and hack the setup to accept any email and deliver (MDA) to either a directory or even a pipe process; OpenSMTPd makes it very easy to do that in my memory, it's like a 2-lines setup
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<moldybits>
i want to do something like this: (when (ql:quickload :snake) (snake:start)) ; but the reader complains that the snake package doesn't exists
<makomo>
moldybits: yeah, because the package SNAKE doesn't exist until QL:QUICKLOAD has executed
<makomo>
but QL:QUICKLOAD is executed at *run-time*, while the reader works at *read-time*
<makomo>
forms first have to be read in order to be executed, i.e. read-time happens before run-time
<makomo>
you'll have to separate the loading of the system that creates the package and the usage of any of those packages into 2 separate top-level forms
<makomo>
or you can do something like this ^, which will dynamically find the snake:start symbol
<makomo>
and i forgot to add, when loading a file, top-level forms are processed sequentially
<makomo>
each top-level form is read and then evaluated
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<moldybits>
pjb: makomo: thanks.
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<Grue`>
moldybits: use uiop:symbol-call
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<macbug>
hi, i am new to common lisp and currently trying to find my way. I Wonder if there are any web based forums(i like that form) on the world wide web i can have a look at?
<macbug>
ops wrote www two times, sorry.
<moldybits>
Grue`: interesting. thanks.
<macbug>
i found lispforum, thanks to google.
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<Grue`>
macbug: /r/lisp /r/common_lisp on reddit are somewhat active
<Josh_2>
but that means going on Reddit, which is never a smart idea
<Grue`>
you don't have to go outside of these ;)
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<verisimilitude>
I know of one, if you're interested, macbug.
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<verisimilitude>
Are you familiar with anonymous imageboards?
<Josh_2>
oof 4chan
<verisimilitude>
Well, that's the most popular English one, sure; that's not what I refer to, though.
<macbug>
Grue`: thanls, will have a look.
<macbug>
thanks
<Josh_2>
that wierd programme or whatever its called
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<macbug>
verisimilitude: thanks, i subscirbed to those even though i hardly never visits reddit.
<macbug>
my kbd and me are not friends today
<verisimilitude>
I don't understand what you mean by that.
<macbug>
i mean thanks :)
<verisimilitude>
Alright; you're welcome.
<verisimilitude>
If you ever want to make a post instead of just read things, read the rules and look at the post #1 that describes the rules for that board and whatnot.
<verisimilitude>
I'll answer any questions you have, but you should PM me those to avoid clutter here.
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<moldybits>
:around and friends are really nice ...
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<moldybits>
i wish i could hide the :around definitions easily
<pjb>
Why do you want to hide them?
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<moldybits>
i have them in this sequence: read-version read-version:around read-version-major read-version-major:around read-version-minor read-version-minor:around
<pjb>
Why do you write :around methods?
<moldybits>
i want to separate the (tree building and listing printing) from the (bit reading & constructing symbol tables etc.)
<moldybits>
the former i put into the :around methods
<pjb>
So you have a part where you build-tree, and a part where you read-bits. Why do you use the same name for those different parts?
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<moldybits>
i guess i want to pretend they're running in parallel.
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<moldybits>
like the read part is doing its thing while the tree building part is observing from afar
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<moldybits>
hm. maybe i'm trying to do too many things at once.
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<ironChicken>
i'm trying to ql:quickload my own new project. it has a defsystem which includes `:components ((:module :src :components ((:file "package"))))` but when i try to quickload it fails with "Failed to find the TRUENAME of /tmp/src/package.lisp"
<ironChicken>
any ideas why it's looking in /tmp?
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<pfdietz>
PuercoPop: glad you like it :)
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<pfdietz>
fiddlerwoaroof: I suggest using an SMT solver like Z3. It's easy to call out to Z3 from Common Lisp, since the standard SMT syntax is very lispy (with one annoying exception, the printing of empty lists).
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<Xach>
ironChicken: are you by any chance using C-c C-c to compile your defsystem form?
<Xach>
ironChicken: or otherwise compiling it through slime?
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<ironChicken>
Xach: yes, it was with slime via C-c C-c
<jasom>
ironChicken: C-C C-k instead should work then
<jasom>
ironChicken: asdf cares about *where* the asd file is, and C-c C-c creates a temporary file with just the single form you are compiling; operations that work over the entire file (such as C-c C-k) should work.
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<ironChicken>
ah cool. i also tried in a plain sbcl repl and that worked too
<ironChicken>
jasom: thanks for the explanation
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<jasom>
FYI at the repl you should use asdf:load-asd rather than cl:load for loading .asd files (it's only corner cases that make a difference). Recent versions of slime are smart enough to do that for you.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
pfdietz: what does Z3 give me? it will tell me if the boolean conditions are satisfiable, but will it simplify them for me? and, does it expect its input to be in CNCF?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've been really interested in learning about Z3 for a bunch of reasons, but I don't really understand what its use-cases are
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<moldybits>
pjb: thanks for the questions, btw. got me thinking and put me on a more productive track ... for now. :)