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<void_pointer>
jasom, pjb, and Bike: found a decent way to do it that isn't too much of a hack with an :after method for initialize-instance. assert takes places, so it isn't limited to just variables. So one just uses with-slots for the slots and then uses asserts on the various slots which will do the checks and allow the user to input new values for any that fail while updating the slots to the user given values.
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<jcowan>
void_pointer: that would only work if all the asserts are done all over after the restarts, no?
<void_pointer>
jcowan: depends on how coupled the asserts are. If the coupling is only mild, then it would be possible to have an assert handle two or three coupled parameters together
<void_pointer>
jcowan: but it does definitely fall apart very quickly
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<void_pointer>
luckily for my use case, they are only coupled in pairs
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Has anyone used asdf:program-op?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I can't quite figure out how to specify the output path
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<PuercoPop>
fiddlerwoaroof: :build-pathname
<LdBeth>
Good evening everyone
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
PuercoPop: interesting, I came up with a more complicated solution involving output-files
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<asarch>
When you compile SBCL, what is the "native_bootstrap" option for?
<asarch>
I guess using CLisp to compile SBCL is actually not a good idea, right?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Probably not for "normal" builds
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If you're on a platform that clisp supports but sbcl doesn't, you don't have a choice, really
<fiddlerwoaroof>
(s/clisp supports/clisp has a binary available/)
<asarch>
Thank you
<asarch>
Thank you very much fiddlerwoaroof :-)
<PuercoPop>
fiddlerwoaroof: build-pathname worked for me, but I've only used it twice. I don't remember where I cargo culted it from though
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
PuercoPop: cool, I'm just trying to figure out how I can get travis to build a binary with no dependencies on the system so I can upload it to github
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've figured out how to get the static-program-op thing that CFFI provides working, but I'm still working on not depending on osicat's shared library
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<redrapscallion>
If I want to turn a list like (( (1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9) )) into (( (7 1 2 3) (7 4 5 6) (7 7 8 9) )), so just adding a 7 in front of each of those nested lists, is there any easy way to do this?
<redrapscallion>
it doesn't seem like I can just easily cons them together
<no-defun-allowed>
(loop for sublist in list collect (cons 7 sublist))?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Does anyone have any tips about making redistributable images that depend on shared libraries?
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<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: use a shell script for starting, with LD_LIBRARY_PATH
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<no-defun-allowed>
are there any BNF parser generators for CL?
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<beach>
Do you mean a thing where you give it a grammar and it creates the parser for you?
<no-defun-allowed>
yes, i'm open to any grammar syntax actually
<beach>
I think there are several of those.
<beach>
scymtym maintains esrap as I recall.
<no-defun-allowed>
cl-yacc seems the nicest so far, but i still have to write the lexer myself.
<no-defun-allowed>
i'd like to write an editor which basically runs on ASTs instead of text, but i'd like to handle languages other than lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
the next simplest syntax i can think of which is somewhat irregular would be smalltalk, so i'll have a go writing syntax for that
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<no-defun-allowed>
also beach is on the second page so i'm not sure if the other four pages are any good
<pjb>
Of course you must refine, asking for a specific kind of parser generatlr, like, LR, LALR, RD, Earley, etc.
<pjb>
no-defun-allowed: Zebu is nice because it uses itself to parse the grammar. So if you want strict BNF grammar, you can define the parser to parse it, and then use it to write the grammars of the languages you want to parse.
<no-defun-allowed>
O.o
<pjb>
But there are more modern parser generators that are easier to use.
<pjb>
Anyways, the answer to your question is a resounding YES. ;-)
<no-defun-allowed>
haha
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
flip214: I'm not sure if that works, because paths get hardcoded
<pjb>
fiddlerwoaroof: hence the use of logical-pathname and run-time translations.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If I controlled the library in question, this wouldn't be a problem
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Anyways, I've figured out how to use static-program-op to remove the dependency
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Now on to figuring out how to combine that with :if-feature :)
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<pjb>
Post bug reports to the authors' of the library, because they didn't use logical pathnames and give a chance to the user you are.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
nah, I'll just fix their ASDF system definition
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<flip214>
fiddlerwoaroof: in one of my projects, just before writing the core I do (cffi:close-foreign-library :libosicat)
<flip214>
and upon starting up again (setf cffi:*foreign-library-directories*
<flip214>
and that seems to work as expected.
<jackdaniel>
hint: if you do the same trick with cl+ssl you also need to call cl+ssl:reload after loading all ffi libraries anew
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, I figured that out about cl+ssl.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If I build sbcl with the linkable runtime, etc, I can statically link osicat into the dumped image and not depend on the shared object at all
<luis>
fiddlerwoaroof: static-program-op is undocumented isn't it? If you'd like to submit some documentation for it that'd be great, even if it were just a draft
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's in cffi
<jackdaniel>
and luis maintains cffi
<jackdaniel>
so he is asking for documentation for cffi :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Ah, sorry
<fiddlerwoaroof>
There's a couple bugs I'm trying to figure out
<luis>
I was trying to delegate my job stealthily, but my cover"s been blown!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Or, more precisely, missing features
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It forks a second sbcl, but passing *features* from the parent to the child doesn't happen, which breaks ASDF's conditional compilation features
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And then, on OSX, I think you basically have to use libtool to build .a files and not ar
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I have a couple patches that fix these problems for my current use case
<luis>
Sounds good. I'm not terribly familiar with static-program-op, it was submitted by Fare. The more context you can provide in a future pull request the better.
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<jackdaniel>
oh, sorry for blowing up the cover! :-)
<luis>
fiddlerwoaroof: so the *feature* rebinding happens after SBCL is forked?
<jackdaniel>
is it forking or starting a fresh sbcl?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
yeah, forking is the wrong word
<beach>
Hmm. ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION takes a METHOD-COMBINATION metaobject as one of its keyword arguments. So DEFGENERIC must convert the :METHOD-COMBINATION argument to a METHOD-COMBINATION metaobject before calling ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION. But this can not be done by calling FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION, because FIND-METHOD-COMBINATION takes a generic function as its first argument, and we don't have one yet.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
luis, jackdaniel: It saves a runtime image with stuff statically linked in and then uses that to rebuild the system
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, both times it dumps an image, it starts a fresh sbcl
<fiddlerwoaroof>
This also seems to have the side-effect of losing the output file defined in the system definition of the system being dumped. and putting the binary in ~/.cache
<luis>
fiddlerwoaroof: it seems to propagate asdf:*central-registry*, so maybe it needs to propagate more stuff. Seems brittle, though. (I'm reading the code from my phone, which is not ideal.)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah
<Lycurgus>
is it a phablet or a regular phone?
<Lycurgus>
and it is forked as a process by the OS but that is before anything happens
* Lycurgus
is suddenly curious of any package does do a full fork as opposed to threading
<Lycurgus>
*if any
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<jackdaniel>
from what you say it seems like a not fully baked solution
<Lycurgus>
see that a host of them would in an idiosyncratic way, e.g. gbbopen's module system
<jackdaniel>
marking it as "experimental" in potential manual (or even issuing a warning) might be a good idea
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<adlai>
the best kind of software is experiential
<Lycurgus>
is that gonna be a thing, people talking across each other like that (experimental/experiential) ?
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<jackdaniel>
I don't understand both of you, sorry
* Lycurgus
is trynna find if NetCLOS is still available someplace
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<Lycurgus>
yes, from the author's site
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<Lycurgus>
it's setup for Allegro 5
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<adlai>
Lycurgus: sometimes a joke requires recalibrating the humors, or at the very least, careful rereading.
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<Lycurgus>
adlai, recalibrate all the humors! populists talking to populists and elites talking to elites was what I had in mind.
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<pjb>
Is Kardashian populist or elite?
<pjb>
I think I have something here.
<pjb>
Let's call it the Kardashian filter. It should become as famous as the Okhram razor…
<Xof>
beach: you can use the class-prototype of the generic function class in ensure-generic-function-using-class
<Lycurgus>
the Kardashian is the populist Kalman
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<jackdaniel>
please move the offtopic to #lispcafe
<beach>
Xof: The way I read it is that it's too late then. ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION must be passed a METHOD-COMBINATION metaobject.
<beach>
But I guess I could look it up in the DEFGENERIC macro before calling ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
<beach>
Xof: It doesn't matter. I have a differnt SICL-specific function that does not take the generic function argument. I'll just use that.
<beach>
different
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<beach>
Xof: Do you read it differently?
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<jebes>
is there a next browser irc? Trying to debug the buffer switching problem and i'm completely clueless
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<Lucretia>
in ch6 of land of lisp, there are some functions, (say-hello) and (add-five), neither in sbcl, output the first string, it sits there waiting for input and on entering the input, it displays the message. any ideas?
<beach>
Lucretia: The output is buffered. You may have to call FINISH-OUTPUT to empty the buffer.
<Lucretia>
beach: thanks
<beach>
Anytime.
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* Lucretia
is quite surprised by the lack of extensions for vscode for common lisp
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<jebes>
* lucretia most everyone uses emacs.
<jebes>
slime is top tier
<Lucretia>
i stopped using emacs, was using Ada, and it wasn't great tbh
<jebes>
what were your gripes with it?
<jebes>
it takes a lot of configuring, the default expeirence is lack luster imo
<Lucretia>
slooooooow
<jebes>
w-what?
<Lucretia>
with a lot of text, the ada parser was slow
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<Lucretia>
moving the cursor around was painful
<jebes>
I've never done ada, so i've never expeirenced this.
<beach>
It is fine with Common Lisp.
<jebes>
emacs feels snappier (#noanimationgang) than vs code to me
<beach>
Lucretia: So you can safely go back to Emacs for Common Lisp code.
<jebes>
or write your own vs code plugins, swank is a common lisp server.
<jebes>
but emacs has slowly been getting lsp support.
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<Lucretia>
and swank is part of slime?
<beach>
Lucretia: It's the part that runs in the Common Lisp process.
<jebes>
swank is the common lisp server that allows remoting into a repl
<jebes>
what beach said
<Lucretia>
does it do lsp as well?
<beach>
"it"?
<Lucretia>
swank
* Lucretia
doesn't know much about this lisp stuff
<jebes>
swank would need support for lsp, afaik
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<jebes>
Anyone here heard of Cycorp?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Lucretia: i used to use slimv for vim, which worked pretty well
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've also tried atom-slime and it works, but I've never heard of anyone that uses it.
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<Lucretia>
fiddlerwoaroof: ok
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<jmercouris>
hey everyone, indiegogo campaign finished, we raised 1850$ for working on Next, thank you to everyone that contributed
<jmercouris>
I hope to deliver something that will work nicely on macOS and Linux, I'll post any new major releases in this channel, but so far, things are going well
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<jmercouris>
hey, what's the easiest way to launch a lambda in a new thread?
* fiddlerwoaroof
finds the new asdf warnings about system naming annoying
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<jmercouris>
deprecation warnings in general are annoying, as are deprecations and any system behavior changes
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, but adding arbitrary rules to a central part of a programming ecosystem should only be done for really serious reasons
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Plus, as far as I can tell these changes were pushed through without community buy-in
<|3b|>
as far as i can tell, nobody wants to help maintain asdf, so they get what they get :/
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<jackdaniel>
last time I've tried to contribute to asdf I had a very draining discussion about merge request, but there is a chance that the problem was an incompatibility of my personality with the peer reviewer (so I gave up)
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<nly>
Jmercouris i tried to compile next today, apprantly qt won't compile in 8gb ram
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
You can install a binary distribution of qt
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Eventually I'll get around to writing lisp bindings to Linux's cgroups stuff
<fiddlerwoaroof>
So I can have images that self-containerize
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<jmercouris>
nly: QT is not necessary anymore, you must have a very old revision
<jmercouris>
fiddlerwoaroof: are you suggesting that fare was a bit of a loose cannon :P?
<nly>
Ah
<jmercouris>
fiddlerwoaroof: how is the obj-c bridge going via CFFI? did you get the SBCL app to actually work?
<nly>
Thanks, I thought i was following the proper steps in readme on github
<jmercouris>
nly: are you on macOS or Linux?
<nly>
Linux
<jmercouris>
Linux actually compilese these days, only dependency is gtk and webkitgtk+
<jmercouris>
s/compilese/compiles - too much time in a foreign country, my language skills are really messed up
<nly>
Haha i got it
<jmercouris>
though if you wait a little bit, like maybe a month or so, there should be a new Linux release
<nly>
Thanks, next looks really promising :-)
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<mercourisj>
with almost no dependencies, possibly distributed via your package manager or flatpak, undecided
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jmercouris: it works pretty well for me, but the code isn't in a great state for someone else to understand what's going on :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ccl is more reliable than sbcl as far as producing a working app bundle goes, though
<mercourisj>
fiddlerwoaroof: I applaud you, I didn't think you'd even get that far
<mercourisj>
I had delved into the CCL code, and it looked like magic to me
<fiddlerwoaroof>
interop isn't the hard part
<mercourisj>
is it all of the assumptions about the app state?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's things like gatekeeper that make your life interesting
<mercourisj>
all of the signals you have to handle
<mercourisj>
right
<mercourisj>
that's where I figured a lot of the CCL code spent time, making a compatibility layer with Cocoa itself, which you'd have to reinvent and manually invoke
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Nah, as long as you disable sbcl's attempts to catch floating point exceptions, the two runtimes get along pretty nicely
<mercourisj>
interesting, so it is a separate cocoa process you are invoking and interoping with?
<mercourisj>
I had misunderstood your approach then
<fiddlerwoaroof>
No, two runtimes in the same process
<mercourisj>
ah okay, so I did understand
<mercourisj>
:D
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The part I haven't had time to figure out is things like turning objective-c errors into lisp exceptions
<fiddlerwoaroof>
right now, they just crash the process
<fiddlerwoaroof>
which isn't very lisp
<mercourisj>
but it is very exciting
<mercourisj>
and leaves lots of space for all sorts of features to make their way into production code
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ccl has an advantage here in that it was actually developed by Apple/Next for a while, as I understand it, so they've already done a lot of the hard work implementing the bridge
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<mercourisj>
Well, I'm not so sure about that
<mercourisj>
I'm pretty sure MacLisp was not developed by Apple
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's not maclisp
<mercourisj>
I remember talking to RME about the lineage and it was a little bit different than what I thought
<mercourisj>
Let me try to find the issue
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hmm, I might be confusing it with Harlequin's lispworks
<fiddlerwoaroof>
"Well anyway, after that some stuff happened, and Apple ended up acquiring Coral Software because Apple at the time was using Lisp and Smalltalk and other dynamic languages to do their research. So that happened"
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Ah, next used Allegro
<fiddlerwoaroof>
... and switched to OpenMCL that became CCL
<mercourisj>
Yes, Macintosch Common Lisp, I was correct
<mercourisj>
s/Macintosch/Macintosh
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<mercourisj>
then to Coral Common Lisp
<mercourisj>
or am I missing something?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It went, as I understand Coral Comon Lisp -> MCL/OpenMCL -> Clozure Common Lisp
<mercourisj>
Ah, and you are saying Apple owned Coral
<fiddlerwoaroof>
(I actually run that one in a cronjob so I can refile my reading list stuff into my bookmarks.org file)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, my current project (slowly progressing project) is to figure out Mcclim so I can either ressurect the beagle backend using my system or write a new backend
<mercourisj>
fiddlerwoaroof: I wish you the best of luck
<mercourisj>
fiddlerwoaroof: what's that license on the code you posted? Can I include it in Next?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
The .asd specifies MIT
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Which is what I usually use for libraries
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And, I don't notice any direct dependencies that are incompatible with such a license
<fiddlerwoaroof>
mercourisj: ^
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If you improve things, though, I'd appreciate PRs and/or design proposals
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<emaczen>
How do I update a specific system with quicklisp?
<sjl>
You can clone it into local-projects and update to whatever version you want, and that will take precedence over whatever's in the quicklisp dist