whyrusleeping changed the topic of #ipfs to: go-ipfs 0.4.15 is out! Try out all the new features: https://dist.ipfs.io/go-ipfs/v0.4.15 | Also: #libp2p #ipfs-cluster #filecoin #ipfs-dev | IPFS, the InterPlanetary FileSystem: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs | Logs: https://botbot.me/freenode/ipfs/ | Forums: https://discuss.ipfs.io | Code of Conduct: https://git.io/vVBS0
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<Swedneck> where does ipfs actually store data?
<Swedneck> does it just store a pointer to where it is on the disk when you add it?
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<JCaesar> Swedneck: Depends. By default, it will copy everything to the lsm-tree in its home directory. But you can turn on filestore,
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<Swedneck> alright
<JCaesar> see add --nocopy
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<shoku> hah, this wasn't the easiest to find!
<shoku> I assumed the ipfs team chat would be on slack or discord
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<shoku> is there a separate channel for ipfs dev questions, or is it all here?
<Fns[m]> There should e #ipfs-dev channel
<shoku> ah yes, thanks!
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<TUSF> Whether or not there is, devs still lurk here, and most questions can still be asked here.
<shoku> I'm working on an app idea to store game mods over ipfs, for gaming sites
<shoku> I'm curious about the hash for each file
<shoku> I understand I can upload a file and it gets a unique file. Let's say I have a file 1.mp3. What happens when another user uploads the same file 1.mp3 in the future, independently from me? Does their file game the same hash?
<shoku> or do they each get their own hash?
<TUSF> If you both used `ipfs add` on a file that had all the same bytes, then yes, it'll come out with the same hash.
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<shoku> awesome! That's what I was hoping
<TUSF> Hashes can change if you coerce the program to use a different algorithm, with --hash or --cid-version.
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<shoku> nah I'd just be using add like normal
<shoku> It's really just to put like mods for a game like Fallout out there
<shoku> Is the hash independent of the file name? eg: can 1.mp3 and 2.mp3 be the same file with different name, and have the same hash?
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<TUSF> Yeah, the hash doesn't care about the original name of the file
<shoku> even better. But I thought the path included the filename and extension?
<TUSF> Well, if you use `ipfs add -w` you can wrap the file inside a pseudo directory.
<shoku> Ok?
<TUSF> Normally, the filename and extension is lost, but if you have it inside a directory, you can access the file as something like /ipfs/{HASH}/file.txt
<TUSF> So the Hash ends up pointing to a folder, with the file inside.
<TUSF> The file inside still has the original hash tho.
<shoku> gotcha. so someone else could then add that file in the future, pin it, and "seed" the file, even if they only have that file and not the whole folder?
<TUSF> Yeah
<TUSF> Technically speaking, the folder and file are separate "blocks", that are seeded the same way.
<TUSF> The folder just has a link to the file's hash, with some arbitrary name. Two different computers could have the same file, under a different name in a different folder, and it'd be counted the same.
<shoku> Awesome
<shoku> how do folders work btw? are they just a hash as well, but instead of containing "file data" they contain info about hashes (or files) that should be in there?
<Swedneck> oh wow i didn't know that, that's cool
<Swedneck> i really like IPFS' deduplication
<TUSF> In IPFS, most objects are incoded as CBOR, which is binary sort of JSON. So both files and directories are something like a JSON object with different types of data.
<TUSF> If you converted a small file into JSON, it'd look something like {"Data":"Hello World", "links":[]}
<TUSF> Actually, I'm fairly certain the data field has some other information mixed in with the actual file, but that's roughly how it'd look
<TUSF> Meanwhile, directories have a "links" field that points to all its contents, with files names and all
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<JCaesar> And large files have links that point to their sub-blocks. so different files can share parts if the chunker happened to cut out a part that is the same in both.
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<shoku> That's interesting
<shoku> so a folder is essentially a playlist of ipfs links?
<shoku> or what's the difference?
<r0kk3rz> more or less
<TUSF> That's one way to think of it, yeah.
<TUSF> Ultimately, everything in IPFS is a DAG object of some kind.
<shoku> I'm still learning how those work
<r0kk3rz> it doesnt have to be
<shoku> so let's say I upload a folder called \music\ and it has 1.mp3, 2.mp3, 3.mp3, and a subfolder called \country\ with a.mp3, what's the way to shate the root folder? it that a hash just like any link?
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<r0kk3rz> yep
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<shoku> cool. and each individual file in there has its own hash, and the subfolder too
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<shoku> I haven't seen a lot of examples of uses of ipfs in consumer stuff yet
<shoku> only neocities comes to mind
<shoku> It's kinda strange, because I think it could solve a bunch of hosting headaches
<r0kk3rz> tbh applications dont need to advertise that they're using ipfs at all
<r0kk3rz> most use the js-ipfs implementation and its just magic behind the scenes
<shoku> how would you use that?
<r0kk3rz> its an ipfs node written in javascript and runs in the browser
<shoku> just replace regular content (images, video and stuff) with ipfs links instead of your regular host?
<r0kk3rz> there was also an article posted here the other day about someone using IPFS to store and transfer machine sensor data at some manufacturing plant
<ylp> You can see all kind of data when listening to notifications on your node
<TUSF> Actually, does js-ipfs have access to the DHT yet? Last time I tested it, it was practically useless cause it couldn't access any file on my computer unless I put it on one of the bootstrap nodes, like the public gateway.
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<ylp> I also wonder what is the life cycle of the js-ipfs node... does it follows the browser tab life cycle ?
<ylp> for the moment I use an extension for firefox that replace links to the default gateway to my local node
<ylp> is it a good idea to do so ?
<TUSF> I think quite a few people are using that extension.
<shoku> besides github, is there a good place to go read about js-ipfs?
<shoku> to see how people use it
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<shoku> also, when using js-ipfs, do you get the benefit of running a real node like in go-ipfs?
<shoku> eg: does it actually try to connect to different nodes, get the chunks from there?
<shoku> or is it via the http gateway?
<r0kk3rz> you dont need anything particular to just use the http gateway
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<shoku> right, I figured you just give it the hash and use that, but I'm assuming it's bottlenecked by just going through one host
<r0kk3rz> why would you assume that?
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<shoku> because http connects to just one web server normally?
<shoku> so I'm assuming there's a web server, and behind the scene it's being fed by an ipfs node
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<r0kk3rz> thats the http gateway yeah
<r0kk3rz> i thought you were talking about js-ipfs
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<shoku> I was wondering if js-ipfs can do that too or if it's being fed via http in the end
<shoku> like, does it use a socket to talk to the multiple nodes, rather than just one place?
<r0kk3rz> yes, thats the whole point
<shoku> well it could have been simply a lib to support ipfs methods, I dunno :)
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<r0kk3rz> thats js-ipfs-api
<r0kk3rz> ie. and api wrapper for the go node
<shoku> gotcha
<shoku> I have to say the knowledge is kinda scattered. Besides the github readmes, it's a bit difficult to find examples
<shoku> There's a lot of "I did this!", but not a lot of "here's what you can do with these moving parts and why"
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<r0kk3rz> yeah its still a bit early for such things
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<ilyaigpetrov> Somewhere when floodsub was first proposed I have seen on one ipfs GH repo a bunch of research papers gathered for those who want to dig into devising new pubsub. I can't find it any more now, any hints?
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<ilyaigpetrov> does ipfs still use dumb floodsub?
<r0kk3rz> i believe so
<ilyaigpetrov> thanks, looks familiar
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<fiatjaf> why doesn't the gateway http output for unixfs dirs show the hashes of linked files?
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<olizilla> a unixfs dir node contains named aliases for the cids of the files it contains
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<olizilla> fiatjaf: do you mean, why not show the hash as well as the filename?
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<kolonka[m]> "We have designed a more robust underlying algorithm that will scale to much larger use cases but we wanted to ship this simple implementation so you can begin using it for your applications"
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<kolonka[m]> So I was reading a Hacker News thread the other day about Bitswap, and how nodes being incentivised to grab data they do not antecedently know the contents of might create a precedent for blocking IPFS, since someone could be downloading and sharing illegal files without any explicit consent or awareness of that. What does the team think about this?
<kolonka[m]> There isn't any law regarding the transfer/possession of 'illegal blocks' as far as I know, so depending on the bs implementation you may not need to store any complete files. But what about the default, ie, what if you do?
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<kolonka[m]> In fact, scratch that last sentence, I do not know if bs stores whole files by default, or just arbitrary blocks.
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<Fns[m]> Could you define 'illegal' in this case?
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<kolonka[m]> Classified info, CP, copyright infringement etc.
<kolonka[m]> Anything that puts someone at the risk of prosecution for transferring or possessing.
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<kivutar> can somebody help me to get this tiny ipfs dapp working? https://github.com/kivutar/twt
<kivutar> ipfs cat takes ages
<kivutar> the app is hosted here QmcjuJbUQpktdC1Z1TzcooSD2xfKrFvVY71mUHjGMezJZZ
<kivutar> (metamask rinkeby)
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<fiatjaf> olizilla: yes.
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<fiatjaf> olizilla: if I have a unixfs dir with lots of content in subdirectories, but I want to share just a part of it with someone using the public gateway, I can't easily get a link to just one of the subdirectories, I keep getting links to /ipfs/<master-folder>/<subfolder-name>, and that takes a lot of time to load, presumably because the public gateway downloads the entire master-folder contents before serving the given subkey.
<fiatjaf> kivutar, doesn't seem to be loading here
<kivutar> fiatjaf I may have some issues serving stuff then
<kivutar> indeed, I can't access it from a gateway
<lidel> olizilla, fiatjaf, this is actually a good idea. I suspect CIDs could be easily added to listing. It probably requires changes to https://github.com/ipfs/dir-index-html and then switching go-ipfs to new version
<olizilla> fiatjaf: with the go-ipfs cli you can use `ipfs object links QmTxRvftPnKeR7iJfeVpfsGCYEwZ92ot9zrTksAWUACTs7` to list out the cids for the links from a dag-pb / unixfs v1 node
<olizilla> you can also `ipfs dag resolve <cid>/some/deep/path` and it'll print the cid of the node that path ends in
<olizilla> lidel: strongly agree, i think we should always be showing the link name and the cid
<lidel> yeah and CID could be a clickable link as well
<fiatjaf> and a(somewhat hidden) link to the cid?
<olizilla> stealth links
<fiatjaf> kivutar: I'm running it from https://rawgit.com/kivutar/twt/master/index.html with metamask rinkeby. the first time I tried to post I got an error on line 25, related to `files`. now I'm trying again but the callback isn't being called.
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<kivutar> fiatjaf are you using the companion?
<kivutar> and do you see a list of messages under the form?
<fiatjaf> kivutar, yes and no
<fiatjaf> I see hashes logged to the console
<kivutar> then `cat` is also failing
<fiatjaf> and I once got a popup window from my local node asking if I would give files.add permission
<kivutar> certainly because of my hosting issue
<kivutar> I'm going to setup an ipfs node on a vps
<kivutar> ah, after refreshing the page 1 time, I do see the messages, and I was able to post a "Thanks fiatjaf" message
<kivutar> things will certainly improve after I setup this mirror
<kivutar> thanks for your help
<fiatjaf> :P
<fiatjaf> is there an app anywhere that uses js-ipfs to show a button saying CLICK HERE AND KEEP THIS PAGE OPEN TO HELP KEEPING THIS CONTENT ALIVE ON THE WEB, so normal people could help hosting each others' ipfs contents voluntarily without having to install go-ipfs and learn their way around it?
<fiatjaf> if not, why? is this a bad idea? why?
<kivutar> is js-ipfs dht working? that could explain why nobody does
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<Fns[m]> What's the problem with installin go-ipfs and running it as daemon?
<kivutar> my grandmom doesn't know how to install it ;)
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<kivutar> fiatjaf I pinned the hashes in my mirror, now it should display some messages :)
<kivutar> I also pinned the html here QmWE2HChKyYCs4cWMoLRzNDqwxNVjs76bA1sMizhk5WHEE
<kivutar> so what I notice is, if I use go-ipfs I can get some messages posted from go-ipfs, and if I use js-ipfs I can see messages posted in js-ipfs
<kivutar> they don't seem to be compatibles yet
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<whyrusleeping> kivutar: its mostly that browsers have a hard time connecting to random go servers without ssl websockets
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<kivutar> and is the opposite also true?
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<fiatjaf> kivutar, I was able to post something and pay rinkeby money, but didn't see any posts
<fiatjaf> Cannot read property 'get' of undefined
<fiatjaf> but you've minified the sources! don't do that!
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<kivutar> because I have not implemented event subscription
<kivutar> reloading the page should display your message if it has been mined
<kivutar> mmmh, the only thing minified is the ipfs and web3 libs
<whyrusleeping> kivutar: yeah, go doesnt know how to connect to js-ipfs very well. js-ipfs doesnt actually listen for connections other than via relay IIRC
<whyrusleeping> (or webrtc, if enabled)
<kivutar> oh
<whyrusleeping> and since js-ipfs nodes don't have the DHT running, go nodes can't easily find addresses for them
<whyrusleeping> if you manually connect js-ipfs nodes and go nodes, everything works great
<kivutar> anyway, these projects are awesome, it's really exciting to see all this becoming a reality
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<whyrusleeping> (especially on go-ipfs 0.4.16-rc1)
<kivutar> I saw some PRs about the DHT, the phase 2
<kivutar> looks like half of it is there?
<whyrusleeping> its pretty close
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<fiatjaf> whyrusleeping, I remember adding stuff on js-ipfs on a browser and being able to instantaneously browsing them on the public gateway
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<easywind> Hi, all! I'm working on a comparison of decentralized platforms and I'm having a hard time finding some information about IPFS. One of the things I need to know is where exactly encryption is employed when transmitting data (content, not network metadata). Is that used at all, or is everything transmitted from one node to another unencrypted? And if it's encrypted, what are the cyphers used?
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<ilyaigpetrov> easywind: from the IPFS paper: "Nodes are identified by a NodeId, the cryptographic hash of a public-key, created with S/Kademlia’s static crypto puzzle[1]. Nodes store their public and private keys (encrypted with a passphrase). Users are free to instatiate a “new” node identity on every launch, though that loses accrued network benefits. Nodes are incentivized to remain the same."
<ilyaigpetrov> easywind: so I guess private-public key pair is used to encrypt traffic like in https
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<shoku> Is there a good ipfs client for desktop? Something that'd feel like a torrent client or dropbox?
<easywind> ilyaigpetrov: Thanks; but reading just that I don't automatically understand that traffic is encrypted; the public-key crypto may be used just for authentication, network maintenance (routing etc) and other functions like that.
<easywind> ilyaigpetrov: do you have any other reason to believe content is actually encrypted when transmitted?
<ilyaigpetrov> I haven't heard that public-private key pairs may be used for other purposes than encryption
<easywind> No, what I meant is that I don't get from that that the actual content being distributed is encrypted
<easywind> That the pk crypto could be used for authentication of nodes (signing stuff) and maybe exchanging network metadata
<easywind> And, yeah, I guess if you're just using it to sign stuff you could see that as not being encryption per se
<easywind> When exchanging routing information (Kamdelia's DHT) I guess you would have to make sure you're receiving the information from the correct nodes. I guess that's what the quote you used is referring to; I could be wrong, of course
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<easywind> *Kademlia
<ilyaigpetrov> easywind: you may try reading the ipfs paper yourself, there are other paragraphs pertaining encryption, e.g. "IPFS is equipped to handle object-level cryptographic operations. An encrypted or signed object is wrapped in a special frame that allows encryption or verification of the raw bytes.". But I believe key pair is used not only to identificate/authenticate nodes but also to encrypt traffic between them.
<ilyaigpetrov> easywind: "IPFS is designed to be used in a number of different ways"..."As an encrypted file or data sharing system"
<easywind> Cool, ilyaigpetrov. Thanks for the help! To be honest I read the paper several months ago, but I'm dealing with five different platforms and sometimes it's hard to keep track. Since I'm really tight on time here, I thought I'd come and see if somebody would know the answer off the top of their head. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
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<easywind> Hmmm... I haven't hung out at IRC for some 15 years. Was that the end of a netsplit, some kind of malicious activity or something else? :)
<easywind> Anyway, ilyaigpetrov, I had sent a message just before that flood above. You may not have seen it.
<gwillen> easywind: a split of sorts... that was the Matrix gateway coming back online
<gwillen> unlike normal splits it doesn't get summarized to just a couple lines.
<easywind> Ah, I see. Thanks, gwillen!
<gwillen> np!
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<easywind> Anyway, I'll go back to the IPFS paper, but if anyone else knows a more exact answer, I'll remain logged on for a while
<easywind> Maybe I should repeat the question, especially for those who were just rejoined:
<easywind> Hi, all! I'm working on a comparison of decentralized platforms and I'm having a hard time finding some information about IPFS. One of the things I need to know is where exactly encryption is employed when transmitting data (content, not network metadata). Is that used at all, or is everything transmitted from one node to another unencrypted? And if it's encrypted, what are the cyphers used?
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<shoku> I'm still wondering if anyone here knows a good ipfs client for desktop
<shoku> Something that'd feel like dropbox or even a torrent client
<shoku> (from a user experience perspective)
<easywind> shoku: I've been studying IPFS, but I'm not a user (yet). But from what I know of the system, your question doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I'm not sure if I misunderstood the question, if you misunderstood the system, or something else.
<ilyaigpetrov> shoku: I doubt such high level tools would appear before main protocol is not mature in its specification and feature set (though I think It's robust enough after years of development)
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<shoku> "How to easily upload a file to ipfs!" -> 1) get the cli tool 2) run daemon 3) type these commands 4) you can use the hash to share! hmmmm.
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<fiatjaf> shoku, at some point there must be hashes involved, right?
<fiatjaf> shoku, besides that, how do you envision a dropbox-like client?
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<TUSF> I assume he means something like mounting IPFS to a filesystem location, where you can easily drop and edit files, and only have to worry about hashes when sharing those files.
<TUSF> That said, there's a couple guis that abstract away the need for the CLI at least.
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<TUSF> Actually, has anyone meddled with Planetary Dictator?
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<TUSF> Is there a way I could listen in for when a "flush" happens with `ipfs files`?
<TUSF> If not, I feel it'd be a useful feature