azonenberg changed the topic of #homecmos to: Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | Wiki: http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/wiki/Main_Page | Repository: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/
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<azonenberg> berndj: Probably lol
<azonenberg> i think you end up getting the isolation diodes forward biased all the time :p
<azonenberg> Unless i'm misunderstanding the question
<berndj> azonenberg: no, i'd flip *everything*, including the well contacts
<azonenberg> oh... hmm
<berndj> i'd probably make the inverted section narrower than the rest of the cell, so the power rails could still go straight across, but a "private" rail for the inverted rails
<azonenberg> hmm, sounds overcomplicated
<azonenberg> maybe cheat and use poly as a routing layer? :p
<azonenberg> Though you can't do that on a modern process
<azonenberg> they usually do double patterning etc on poly
<berndj> i wanted to try laying out that dff like that to see if it saves real estate compared to using jumpers to get gate signals to cross over each other
<azonenberg> i see
<azonenberg> What process node are you targeting?
<berndj> magic calls it "scalable cmos"
<azonenberg> So presumably relatively large?
<berndj> but it's more polygon doodling and self-didactic than actually making something real
<azonenberg> like 180nm or so?
<berndj> probably
<azonenberg> you can get away with lots of stuff at those levels that you could never do at 22nm
<berndj> are you saying the design rules are overrestrictive considering modern processes?
<berndj> i mean that, if you used a 22nm process to build a 180nm chip, you'd have the luxury of using 22nm rules, not the 180nm rules
<azonenberg> luxury, lol
<azonenberg> no
<azonenberg> it probably wouldnt even pass DRC
<berndj> but i thought the big processes were actually just all the old equipment, hence old rules
<azonenberg> What i mean is, it's generally not possible to build a chip five gens old on a modern porcess
<azonenberg> process*
<berndj> *not possible*?
<azonenberg> maybe if you retooled the masks or the process workflow a lot
<azonenberg> TSMC 28nm for example uses double patterning
<berndj> oh, you mean the same chip 5 times smaller?
<azonenberg> No, i mean the same size
<azonenberg> This is from a Kintex-7 FPGA
<azonenberg> Note that the gates are all exactly the same size and regularly spaced
<azonenberg> The process cannot make a gate any bigger or smaller
<azonenberg> (you're looking at poly and active)
<azonenberg> TSMC 28nm
<azonenberg> It's two litho steps, one for defining the parallel lines and then one for cutting them vertically
<azonenberg> It wouldn't surprise me if the parallel lines are generated by some kind of interference pattern
<berndj> i thought that's what "double patterning" is?
<berndj> (interference magic)
<azonenberg> Not strictly
<azonenberg> There's a half dozen or soe forms of double patterning
<azonenberg> I dont know exactly what they used here
<azonenberg> Its possible this is actually triple litho
<azonenberg> one double-patterning step for the lnies, then another for the cut
<azonenberg> another single litho*
<azonenberg> Anyway the point is, larger processes are generally less restrictive in terms of allowing arbitrary geometry that doesn't violate clearance or density rules
<azonenberg> For example if you are not using copper damascene or CMP, you don't need fill patterns or uniform metal density
<berndj> what's that about btw - not setting up unequal thermal stresses?
<azonenberg> No
<azonenberg> The problem is that copper and oxide polish at different rates
<azonenberg> and you dont want sagging (since the pad isn't perfectly flat, it'll deform slightly if one area polishes faster than another and make the problem worse)
<azonenberg> So you want uniform, roughly, metal density
<berndj> interesting
<berndj> so many weird things that happen
<berndj> also: those power rails on micrographs have a continuous row of contacts; is this important or would it be (electrically) enough to have one or two contacts into a mini-well that's "wrong way round"?
<azonenberg> Not sure if you need that many
<berndj> hmm, so you can only have one width of poly in some processes?
<azonenberg> Yeah
<azonenberg> And it has to be axially aligned
<azonenberg> and exactly the same size
<azonenberg> pretty much uniform pattern
<azonenberg> i'm not sure how much you're able to deviate from that
<berndj> so no non-manhattan lines either?
<azonenberg> Older chips did 45deg but i rarely if ever see them in modern devices
<azonenberg> except in really large geometry like power buses
<azonenberg> that may just be due to the autorouters though
<berndj> i think i've done it
<berndj> almost. i just have to squeeze in an m2 contact here
<berndj> magic's drc won't let me put it on top of a poly contact though :(
<berndj> "via must be on a flat surface" which is fair enough i guess
<berndj> meh, i just realized i didn't make well contacts under the main power rails
<berndj> it's supposed to implement the schematic (sans w/l ratios) at http://vlsitechnology.org/html/cells/wsclib013/dfnt1.html btw
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