<learningc> not so empty here
<azonenberg> Not at all, its picking up
<azonenberg> slowly but surely
<azonenberg> we now have several people doing lab work
<azonenberg> i'm focusing on bulk micromachining of <110> Si by KOH wet etch using Cr hardmask
<azonenberg> as well as metal patterning
<azonenberg> swkhan is doing research elsewhere on ALD techniques (in a real lab) but is interested in our work
<azonenberg> B0101 is starting out with josephson junctions
<azonenberg> ashaw wants to build a laser direct-write lithography rig
<azonenberg> those are the main efforts i know off the top of my head
<azonenberg> check out the die pics on the googlecode page
<learningc> oh so you are most here from the same university or...?
<azonenberg> Nope
<azonenberg> i'm at RPI
<azonenberg> ashaw is in australia
<azonenberg> B0101 is in singapore
<azonenberg> and swkhan is in california
<azonenberg> lol
<learningc> cool, I just saw hobbyist-friendly at the google page
<learningc> I can make the circuits at home too
<azonenberg> Thats the idea, yes
<azonenberg> There will definitely be some investment in optics etc
<azonenberg> and some basic chem knowledge will be required
<azonenberg> but we want to keep it simple, of the magnitude of PCB etching
<azonenberg> build your own single layer PCBs at home? Fine
<learningc> how much does it cost in tools and equipments investment though?
<azonenberg> Build your own 2-metal ASICs at home?
<azonenberg> Fine too
<azonenberg> learningc: We havent gotten it working yet lol
<azonenberg> Techniques are gradually evolving
<learningc> what kind of investment in optics? what kind of microscope?
<azonenberg> Depends on the process size you want
<azonenberg> 200um is doable dirt cheap
<ashaw> By the way, The imaging device I am designing has a cost of about 700-1000
<azonenberg> 20um costs a bit more
<azonenberg> 350nm will not be cheap but may be feasible eventually
<ashaw> I am targeting 350nm
<azonenberg> ashaw: A bit high but it will hopefulyl be one of the most expensive parts of the setup
<azonenberg> And lets see how it turns out
<ashaw> that is 12st rev
<azonenberg> Remember you need not be able to make masks at that size
<azonenberg> I envision building a stepper at some point
<azonenberg> with maybe 4x reduction
<azonenberg> get some nice olympus microscope objectives
<ashaw> stepper?
<azonenberg> or mitutoyo
<azonenberg> yes, to do multiple dies on a wafer
<ashaw> oh, yeah
<azonenberg> using a single mask
<azonenberg> Thats much further out
<ashaw> or, as I go directly
<azonenberg> initially i'm using my cheap microscope as a projection aligner since it gets the job done
<azonenberg> ashaw: not sure if you heard when i said a little while ago but i just got two new blank wafers
<ashaw> the DMD device I have has a resolution of 7.6uM
<azonenberg> 2 inch <110> both sides polished
<azonenberg> tomorrow if time permits i'll be depositing a micron of Cr on both sides of one
<ashaw> the other expensive thing will be the CMP machine, no?
<azonenberg> CMP? No, i think that could be made cheaply
<azonenberg> depending on the precision required
<azonenberg> it could share parts with the spin coater
<ashaw> probably not actually
<azonenberg> like i said i'm targeting 20um
<azonenberg> at 350nm things get a bit harder :p
<ashaw> as the wafer must be mounted upside down
<azonenberg> CMP is on the roadmap but i dont need it yet
<azonenberg> So i havent put much work into it
<learningc> 2 metals asic? what type of metals involved?
<azonenberg> i've been developing processes as they become necessary
<azonenberg> learningc: 2 metal layers
<azonenberg> as in, one for the gates and one interconnect layer
<azonenberg> is a bare minimum
<azonenberg> 3 is prefrable
<azonenberg> and probably filament evaporated aluminum
<ashaw> my goal is CMP with electrolytic copper
<ashaw> personally
<learningc> using this technique to build transistors?
<azonenberg> ashaw: the thing about copper is that you need a barrier layer and everything
<azonenberg> and adhesion layers
<azonenberg> sputtered Ta will work
<ashaw> no, that is front end of line
<azonenberg> i was thinking damascene actually
<azonenberg> for when i got to copper
<azonenberg> sol-gel SiO2
<azonenberg> litho with negative of metal pattern
<azonenberg> sputter Ta then Cu without breaking vacuum
<azonenberg> into the trenches
<learningc> what are the semiconductors used?
<azonenberg> then CMP until its flat
<azonenberg> learningc: silicon
<learningc> doped with?
<azonenberg> The ones i have are mostly P type B doped
<azonenberg> but i've been doing mostly MEMS
<azonenberg> so i dont really care
<ashaw> probably p doped
<azonenberg> My handful of CMOS masks are for an N-well process on P type wafers
<azonenberg> but there's plenty of room for change between now and then
<azonenberg> in any case its 0100 here and i need sleep lol
<azonenberg> Keep the discussion going, i'll be back in the morning
<ashaw> learningc
<ashaw> What are you interested in about this?
<learningc> I'm exploring the ideas only
<ashaw> my LDI head will work with PCBs too :)
<learningc> and see how far we can make our own devices
<ashaw> same machine
<learningc> LDI?
<ashaw> Laser direct imagnig
<learningc> oh, I have no access to a laser though
<ashaw> Bluray laser
<learningc> of those
<ashaw> diode based
<learningc> what's the power of these?
<ashaw> 300mW
<azonenberg> You dont need much
<azonenberg> thats actually overkill
<ashaw> yeah
<azonenberg> you need aroudn 200 mJ/cm^2 for my photoresist
<ashaw> huge
<learningc> you can go far with 300mW
<azonenberg> so 20 mW would need 10 sec for a 1cm^2 die if you could get it all onto the die
<azonenberg> 300mW would need under a second and would actually probably have to be PWMed
<ashaw> you would probably need 1mW
<learningc> but I suppose the optics is critical?
<azonenberg> learningc: yes
<ashaw> and driving the DMD device
<learningc> or do you use the same optics in the bluray instead?
<ashaw> no different
<ashaw> very
<ashaw> more like a digital projector
<ashaw> but using a bluray laser as a light source
<ashaw> and not expanding it
<learningc> did you do any prototype of the laser imaging device?
<ashaw> I am designing it now.
<learningc> what about others?
<ashaw> and will build it soon
<ashaw> not a new idea
<ashaw> used for a long time in PCB industry
<learningc> but it's a challenge if you DIY
<ashaw> I am scaling it down, in cost, and in feature size
<ashaw> yeah
<learningc> is it like a cnc machine?
<ashaw> the main movement stage is, yes
<learningc> and what kind of resolution are you targetting?
<learningc> or precision
<ashaw> I want to image at 500nm
<ashaw> 10 allow a 1um process
<azonenberg> ashaw: Hmm
<azonenberg> You want to put the laser head on an x-y table?
<azonenberg> I thought you were going to do single 1024x768 or whatever masks
<azonenberg> You will have alignment issues since your stages will probably not be that accurate
<azonenberg> I mean, it'd be fine at 5-10um scales probably
<azonenberg> But going smaller will not be easy
<ashaw> I intend to have a movable head, but before magnification
<ashaw> azonenberg
<azonenberg> h/o busy
<learningc> azonenberg: which microchip wifi module do you recommend since I'm believing you have a bit of experience with them?
<learningc> azonenberg: never mind, only 2 versions one with antenna build-in and the other external
<learningc> I think I'll go for the external one