ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a _better_ cult ˙ ͜ʟ˙ embrace, extend, extinguish.
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<gq> -fingernails
<purr> gq: they're weird
<gq> fack.
<gq> purr: ilu etc
* vigs pets purr
* purr r
<vigs> one r? JUST ONE R?
* vigs emphatically pets purr
* purr r
* vigs enthusiastically pets purr
* purr rrr
<vigs> meh
* gq giggles
<gq> purr: whee
<gq> -friends
<gq> -gq
<purr> gq: genderqueer
<gq> -vigs
<gq> -ec
<purr> gq: literally a fucking wizard. boo hiss
<gq> HAHA
<gq> -glowcoil
<gq> -micahjohnston
<gq> -gqbrielle
<purr> gq: she is not devyn (I think.)
<gq> -devyn
<purr> gq: he is so wat right now
<gq> yay
<gq> ...
<gq> -alexgordon
<purr> gq: Could not find `khaleesi`.
<gq> :>
<gq> 0:3
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> -alexgordon
<purr> alexgordon: Could not find `khaleesi`.
<gq> -fingernails @ alexgordon
<purr> alexgordon: they're weird
<alexgordon> -gq @ gq
<purr> gq: genderqueer
<gq> -khaleesi @ alexgordon
<gq> -wb @ alexgordon
<gq> -penis @ alexgordon
<gq> ...
<gq> purr: come on, i wtb welcome-back penises :(
<alexgordon> don't you go shoving penis in my face!
<gq> PENIS
<alexgordon> NOOOOO
* gq shoves ec's penis in alexgordon 's face
<gq> YESSSSSSS
<alexgordon> why is it always cocks
<alexgordon> WHY
<gq> idk
gq is now known as cythraul
<cythraul> DOPPELGANGERS
<cythraul> WHY IS IT ALWAYS DOPPELGANGERS
* cythraul runs around the room shrieking; hits wall; falls down
cythraul is now known as gq
<alexgordon> gq: why did you leave?
<alexgordon> LOL
<alexgordon> you are the craziness this channel was missing
<alexgordon> now if only we could have micah's brains back
<gq> alexgordon: same reason i always leave: i was mad. in the rectal area
<gq> alexgordon: glowcoil isn't here right now, he's at uni making friends & art like a normal person :3
<alexgordon> yeah it's fucking shit!
<gq> ikr?
<gq> WHY SHOULD HE GET TO BE HAPPY & SUCCESSFUL WHEN THE REST OF US ARE MISERABLE
<alexgordon> cause he's mormon
<alexgordon> they're all so fucking happy
<gq> glowcoil: i demand an explanation. you have to be happy! if you're not happy, #elliottcable loses!
<alexgordon> it's unbelievable
<gq> alexgordon: nah, i know lots of miserable mormons
<alexgordon> LALALALALALALA
<gq> being a miserable, suicidal Southern Baptist is p. instructive
<alexgordon> all mormons are happy
<gq> i almost killed myself this weekend like 3 times
<gq> then i survive to monday
<gq> and FUCKING
<gq> ROBIN
<alexgordon> I refuse to accept evidence to the contrary
<gq> WILLIAMS
<gq> NO.
<gq> I REFUSE.
* gq hides in the dirt with an Aladdin picture book
<gq> noooooooooo
<gq> -no
<gq> -yep
<gq> pfffffffffffff
<gq> -4chan
<gq> thought not
<gq> alexgordon: i'm on nuck's home server, taunting people
<alexgordon> -34 4chan
<purr> alexgordon: Here. <http://bit.ly/1kA0XfG> [NSFW]
<gq> alexgordon: it's going pretty well
<purr> alexgordon: ... if you had any sense, you wouldn't have asked.
<gq> HAHA
<gq> i am not clicking that :3
<alexgordon> me neither
<alexgordon> -34 tumblr
<purr> alexgordon: Here. <http://bit.ly/1kA0Y3q> [NSFW]
<purr> alexgordon: ... if you had any sense, you wouldn't have asked.
<vigs> -gq
<purr> vigs: genderqueer
<vigs> oh
<vigs> -vigs
<vigs> neat
<gq> alexgordon: nuck sent me there to 'make me less sensitive' after Foonetic banned me 4 life
<alexgordon> -34 genderqueer
<gq> alexgordon: so now i'm will be their king
<gq> it's only right and fair
<vigs> coke + malibu = not bad
<alexgordon> gq: lolol
<purr> lolol
<gq> vigs: never tried it
<alexgordon> vigs: by coke you mean?
<gq> alexgordon: so far i have ops in the 7th biggest channel on server
<vigs> gq: I wanted a drink, and those are the first things I found
<vigs> alexgordon: the soda
<alexgordon> vigs: are you sure?
<vigs> positive
<gq> vigs: i wanted a drink but when suicidal & on pills it's best not to +vodka to that
<gq> because
<alexgordon> -34 cocaine
<gq> this kills the gq.
<vigs> gq: Suicidal? Are you alright? :<
<gq> vigs: we had two power outages within a week that lasted for 3 days
<vigs> oh, ouch
<gq> vigs: 2nd one started a brushfire
<gq> no one was home
<vigs> so not literally suicidal, I hope
<gq> or answering their phones
<gq> smoke everywhere
<gq> yes, literally suicidal
<gq> i thought i was going to die
<vigs> oh D:
<gq> and i thought...
<gq> i cannot die here like this
<gq> so apparently my brain's solution was: well
<gq> let's chew our own wrist off
<gq> that will help
<gq> i was fine then.
<gq> the worst came later.
<gq> mostly this weekend.
<gq> i managed to ride it out with a minimum of attempting to an hero
<gq> ...
<gq> then robin williams was dead.
<vigs> …welp.
<gq> -notfair
<gq> purr: it's not fair :C
<alexgordon> gq: have you ever thought of joining the jesus christ church of latter day saints?
<gq> purr is notoriously bad at responding to my attempts to cheer myself up
<gq> alexgordon: no. i have thought of converting to judaism.
<gq> (yes, seriously)
<gq> so...on scale of 0-10
<gq> no, i won't kill myself, because d's grandpa said if i did that like d's dad did
<gq> she'd never forgive me
<gq> and i have enough unforgiveness floating around in my brain
<gq> and also because
<gq> if robin's left us...
* gq miserable atm
<devyn> -back
<purr> devyn: Welcome back! Here, have some welcome-back penises. http://youtu.be/RvkWhGVNky4
<gq> -back
<purr> gq: Welcome back! Here, have some welcome-back penises. http://youtu.be/RvkWhGVNky4
<gq> -white goo
<purr> gq: dreeping down my strema
<vigs> NOP
<gq> ...
<gq> -ovoids
<devyn> -ovoids @ vigs
* gq devours many tiny white pills
<gq> it's okay tho
<gq> they're all prescribed
<gq> :>
<gq> -robot addentast
<gq> as;ldifya;isdyf
<gq> or whatever
<gq> LAUREN BACALL DIED?
<gq> WHAT
<gq> THE FUCK
<gq> IS WRONG WITH THIS WEEK
<gq> O_O
<alexgordon> gq the jew?
<gq> alexgordon: my first name is already gabrielle & racists online think i look jewish. i don't mean that's why i'd convert, but.
<gq> my parents are horrible antisemites, as most southern baptists are
<alexgordon> really?
<alexgordon> I thought americans loved jews
<gq> they blame the jews for Jesus being dead, not really realising that the Jews don't LIKE liars/crazy people trying to run away with their community. and if Jesus wasn't for real, then he was the biggest con artist ever.
<alexgordon> jew loving is a proud american pasttime
<devyn> not everyone
<alexgordon> gq: what's with all the american christian fundies who go to israel then?
<devyn> they're not the same denomination
<gq> alexgordon: my grandpa who died in March did that. they approve of Israel, they think it's the Jews back where God wants them to be
<devyn> America has so many denominations of christianity that I think it's pointless to even enumerate them
<gq> alexgordon: he bought a lot of keysakes and annoyed people by trying to speak in Hebrew.
<devyn> well wtf then
<alexgordon> so there's fundamentalists who hate jews, and fundamentalists who love them unconditionally. lol
<purr> lol
<gq> when i'm feeling really morbid i imagine him trying to convert people over there & twitch so hard i about have a heart attack.
<alexgordon> america is a weird place, you know that? :P
<gq> alexgordon: but the ones who love them are in a really racist way ;P
<gq> alexgordon: i'm very aware.
<alexgordon> also jesus was jewish so aren't christian anti-semites hating on their own messiah?
<alexgordon> I guess it's a mistake to try and find sense in any of these things
<gq> alexgordon: no, try to. that's where the real laughs are.
<gq> alexgordon: at its worst, you get christians calling the people who physically nailed him to the cross heroes
<gq> alexgordon: and then calling the rest of the community, including Jesus' MOTHER, horrible slurs.
<gq> :S
<alexgordon> lol
<purr> lol
<alexgordon> gq: Henry VIII was a good guy
<alexgordon> anglicanism is so mild and calm in comparison
<gq> alexgordon: Heh. My rapist ex really liked Henry VIII and took me to see The Other Boleyn Girl with him when we were first dating
<gq> alexgordon: then he tried to force me to make out with him during the entire film.
<gq> :s
<alexgordon> . . .
<alexgordon> gq: you know Henry VII lived down the road from me?
<alexgordon> erm
<alexgordon> VIII
<gq> alexgordon: No, but I can believe it.
<gq> er, henry the 8th* is th eone i eas referring to
<gq> to me, all Henry's pale in comparison.
<alexgordon> we went to the Henry VIII museum and checked out some of his irons
<alexgordon> (that's all I remember)
<gq> ah
<alexgordon> in hindsight I doubt henry VIII did much ironing
<alexgordon> his time was mainly consumed by eating pies
<alexgordon> and fucking
<alexgordon> sometimes at the same time
<alexgordon> what I don't get about henry VIII is, why did he give a shit about marriage?
<alexgordon> he was fucking KING
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<gq> oops
<gq> -why
<purr> gq: ’cause, idfk, reasons ’n stuff
<gq> heh
* devyn dances
<gq> -dance
<gq> -devyn
<purr> gq: he is so wat right now
* gq cheers for devyn
<gq> i want to dance! but i'm no good at it.
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<devyn> aweh
<devyn> neither am I
<gq> ?
<gq> oh
<gq> well, that's alright then
<gq> devyn: may i have this dance, sir?
<devyn> gq: you may indeed
<gq> devyn: fast, or slow? i'm good at waltzes
<devyn> gq: waltz is good
<gq> great!
* gq waltzes with devyn
* devyn plays whatever that waltz song is
<gq> i think My Darling Clementine is a waltz
<gq> depressing as hell, of course
<gq> but without words it SOUNDS cheery.
<devyn> haha
<gq> :>
<devyn> aren't a lot of things like that?
<gq> cheery if you don't know the context?
<gq> yes.
<gq> my favorite french song is considered a children's song where ilive
<gq> but in french it's literally like
<gq> A BIRD, A FUCKING BIRD, IT'S LOUD, MAKE IT SHUT UP, OH MY GOD, I'M GOING INSANE, I'M GOING TO KILL IT
<gq> and then at the end he's like, "and now my cat is full and i am happy."
<gq> it's a serious trip
<gq> it's like this, "aaaaaaal oo ett ah, jont aaaaaal oo etta ah," usually song softly
<gq> *sung softly
<Cheery> sounds happy
<gq> in my country it's often sung as a lullaby to infants
<gq> devyn: how long did you want to dance? i'm wearing my favorite little grey dress & shoes, so i can go basically forever :3
* gq waltzes more
<vigs> sup nerds
<gq> hey vigs
<gq> you wanna dance?
<gq> we're having an #elliottcable prom
<vigs> lol
<vigs> sure?
<purr> lol
<vigs> I'm considering posting this to /r/programmerhumor
<vigs> thoughts?
<gq> pff
<gq> if wondering, should i reddit?
<gq> a) no
<gq> b) no
<gq> c) GOD NO
<gq> if wondering, should i embarrass a colleague in public?
<gq> a) no
<gq> b) no
<vigs> fair
<gq> c) lulz but NOOOOO
<vigs> but that's me though
<gq> i understand the impulse, though, vigs.
<gq> so?
<gq> i'm chaotic by nature
<vigs> lol
<gq> but i've tried not to expose ec to that.
<gq> ec the ec, not the #elliottcable channel
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wat
<gq> obviously you all haa;lisdyf;aoisdyf;asiydf hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<gq> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh ugh ugh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dad got real sick recently
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: :/
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: is he gonna be okay?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and now there's some antibiotic reaction shit going on, apparently
<gq> fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> he's allergic to *everything*, omfg
<ELLIOTTCABLE> well that's the thing, who knows
<gq> are you at the hospital?
<gq> i'm allergic to lots of stupid shit, so i understand :/
<ELLIOTTCABLE> he's just unhealthy. Got bad genes, a bad lottery.
<gq> yeah
<vigs> :(
* vigs sends hugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if you people think *I*'m rich, you should hear how much his bi-monthly medication infusions cost. The medicine keeping him vaguely healthy costs more than most cars.
* gq hugs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> had a bad infection recently, I didn't even find out until much later because nobody told me (O_O), and the aftermath is still touchy
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: my grandpa died in march of cancer. blood cancer.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> idk words anyway shit's a mess
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: i'm sorry to hear that :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE> march? jesus, we've been out of touch.
<gq> yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and I didn't even know blood cancer was a thing.
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: leukemia, but for old people, basically.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry I've been so absent, devyn
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no internet etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and lost a bunch of work, thanx vim, so haven't really been programming, hence no splurges of git pushes every time I *do* get a couple bars of signal
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (ofmg I'm gigs an gigs over my limit ;_; )
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but. haven't been idle.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: I'm really discouraged. Well, not about Paws *itself*, but about all our recent work.
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: don't be. Paws is looking better than ever from the outside
* gq has been learning to code, again, recently
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I just *can* *not*, after **hours** of fucking battling with this,
<gq> hours? that's a long time :(
<Cheery> and I thought I have a bad day because I'm tired and feeling inadequate
* gq hugs ec
<gq> purr: hug ec dammit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> reconcile non-linear instruction-graph (‘tires’) with what I Want in Paws.
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<Cheery> oh damn. this game makes me just angry.
<Cheery> better to delete it
<Cheery> (FTL)
<gq> heh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hello gq
<gq> hello ec
<Cheery> for some reason I'm still angry
<Cheery> feeling like wanting to smash something.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gq: so, let's plan
<ELLIOTTCABLE> pretty done with being here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> :P
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: okay! you're going to portland, yes?
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: or somewhere near there?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dude fuck if I know
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lessee I should text erica
<gq> kk
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol calendar
<purr> lol
<gq> what is a calendar
<gq> -magnets
<gq> -magnet
<gq> q.q
<ELLIOTTCABLE> idk I *know* I have shit happening in August, but I feel like I must have forgot to put it on my calendar or something?
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<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: iunno
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gq: confirmed, have a place to crash in Portland.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> no particular timeline yet, though.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if this comes together, I suppose you can expect me to come through within a week and a half …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and, it being me, the trip itself, who fucking knows. I'm not really itching to be home right now, but I also want to keep costs down, this time around.
<Cheery> ELLIOTTCABLE: plane to crash huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Cheery: hm?
<Cheery> I saw someone throwing a beer bottle from the car yesterday. If I have had a million I would have rammed that off the road
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Cheery: i rarely fly around, except when a friend needs me badly, or i'm heading to Alaska, or I'm on a tight schedule.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> only a few times a year.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I usually drive everywhere.
<Cheery> but umm.. what are you doing today?
<Cheery> I'm sitting on front of a nearly blank screen, just awaken with little bit of help from the coffee
<ELLIOTTCABLE> huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> "place" to crash, yes
<ELLIOTTCABLE> today, I am sitting outside of a dark restaurant at 11:10PM, leeching WiFi
<Cheery> It's still unclear to me what paws is. It's some kind of language for writing languages?
<Cheery> but I also understood it's not designed for 'common' use. more like tool for language designers
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: you don't have to fly if yo udon't want to
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: i prefer to drive
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: or take a train.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hrm?
<gq> Cheery: Paws is a language.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I already have a car, I'm *definitely* driving if I come over there
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: good! i like road trips.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the fact that I'm already this close, and am driving, is kind of the point :P
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: :p
<gq> ELLIOTTCABLE: idk where you are anymore. not montana?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Cheery: Frankly, Paws is some ephemeral marketing-y shit. It's a mindset.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Cheery: a set of ideas and projects that complement eachother.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Cheery: the stuff we're working on *right now*, is basically a virtual machine, VM.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's the part that would be interesting to you.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> there's a lot of other shit to Paws, but I doubt you'd care as much about most of it.
<Cheery> hmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> as for the Big Picture, well … the Paws mindset is … really just two things, interoperating to give rise to a series of projects and ideas of mine:
<Cheery> I think I should try write a copying garbage collector today.
<Cheery> but it probably won't take even a hour
<ELLIOTTCABLE> A) “Open-source library developers are the only kind of developer that *actually matters*” (or, re-phrased: ‘enabling further abstraction is the only purpose of a software system.’)
<Cheery> wondering and sort of pissed about what to do with the remaining 9 hours.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and B) the assumption that a usefully-large subset of programming tasks can be modeled as a set of ordained interactions between 1. a graph of operations, and 2. a graph of data.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> er, s/graph/homogenous graph/
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (a bit lispy.)
<Cheery> graphs..
<Cheery> I keep hitting graphs and basically I keep hitting visual programming again and again.
<Cheery> but I'm wondering if I should just do something real with plain javascript instead
<ELLIOTTCABLE> visual programming, if you mean what I think you mean, is very interesting to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> for me, it's super-obvious why it's never worked well, before.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in fact, the relationship between visual source-code and traditional source-code, is identical in my opinion to the relationship between s-exprs and traditional source-code.
<Cheery> cheery.visual_programming = representation and editing of programs in highly graphical form.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Scratch : C :: C : s-exprs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> this guy does a very, very good job of *nailing* why that matters.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “The problem was that most past alternatives lost the advantages of s-expressions, in particular, that s-expressions are generic (they do not depend on some underlying semantic) and homoiconic (the underlying data structure is clear from the syntax).”
<Cheery> I see the sort of bridge in the s-expressions yes. one of the reasons why I turned to do what I'm doing now
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that project itself aside, his points are important:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> general and homoiconic.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> he doesn't mention it anywhere, but the obvious follow from that (well, obvious to me, for whatever that's worth), is *abstractability*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> You can't *abstract* on top of C's syntax, except to a piddling extent with some extremely arcane CPP backflips.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you can abstract to an *extent* on top of Ruby's syntax, which is a huge part of the success thereof.
<Cheery> there's lot of interesting things about lisp. But one thing that bothers me is that to so many people it looks like line noise.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so. ‘Visual programming’ might truly become of interest, in my opinion, when we devise an interesting system for *abstracting* on top of it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, not a fan of lisp personally, in a lot of ways
<Cheery> another problem is that I've already lost on that. lisp doesn't look line noise to me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> will say that Readable is very cool, if you want to talk about that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> there's his take on LISP syntax.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's actually extremely usable, afaict. Then again, I don't live and breathe any LISPs.
<Cheery> yeah. but his syntax has a problem
<Cheery> been noticing the parentheses make it easier to explain the language. also it's super clear how it behaves
<Cheery> you don't really think about the syntax anymore with lisp
<Cheery> on some extent there's the horrible things people do with macros
<Cheery> and those introduce stupid syntax such as #() etc.
<Cheery> but otherwise that seems to be one of the superpower in lisp. it leaves your language processing part of the brain untaxed.
<Cheery> yeah the visual programming could be a solution here.
<Cheery> but it's so damn hard
<Cheery> what you've told may be important though
<Cheery> oh shit. I guess I won't get forward if I don't write those damn things.
<Cheery> but I'd like to play something at first
<Cheery> removed the FTL because it sucks
<Cheery> hm..
<Cheery> make game for myself? ehm..
<Cheery> maaybe. >:)
<Cheery> hmm.. game needs audio.. audio context up
<Cheery> game needs input.. mouse input up
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<gq> -fingernails @ ELLIOTTCABLE
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: they're weird
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<katlogic_> ELLIOTTCABLE: Yes, but s-exprs are ugly! And old, blast from the 70s.
<katlogic_> I'm sure XML, JSON or even YAML would be homoiconic too :>
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<Cheery> what do you think about that?
<Cheery> I guess I'll read about that kind of autonomous agents again sometime.
<Cheery> hmm
<Cheery> ELLIOTTCABLE: so in more humane wording. the system should not rely on specific semantics, and the internal representation of the thing should be inferrable from it's visuals.
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<Cheery> by that logic. you would start with boxes
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<Cheery> ELLIOTTCABLE: like that.
<Cheery> except that symbols with meaning would be probably enlargened
<Cheery> I've studied these things a bit
<Cheery> readable things are aligned, or there's things explained by size.. or etc.
<Cheery> if you do it right, no colors are needed
<Cheery> the editing model would probably be a tree
<Cheery> organization model for text would be cells. space would always appear between.
<Cheery> tab would move between elements
<Cheery> enter would split line
<Cheery> I've done something simple like that before
<Cheery> or well. not that simple thing ever.
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<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: sorry to hear that about your dad
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: as for reconciling Tires with Paws, yeah, I know, I've been thinking a lot about that too and can't come up with a good solution. there are possiblities I've thought of, like explicit hole passing [foo $ a b c] where $ refers to the containing subexpr)
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: except that doesn't work because there are all kinds of implicit hole passing points in there, so then another solution is to just pass the hole implicitly every time: [foo a b c]
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: but the disadvantage to that is that no-arg routines then have to take some bogus argument, say [foo _]
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: additionally it doesn't really solve order-dependency in any concrete way either
<Cheery> you can try things to that thing
<Cheery> but I need to set this aside for a moment. I'll concentrate on it this weekend.
<devyn> I just can't imagine that being terribly useful
<devyn> I think, rather, we just need code editors with more visual tools - moving around and copying expressions by dragging and stuff
<katlogic> sounds awfuly cumbersome
<katlogic> and with keyboard its only about how fancy you want to get with vim macros
<devyn> yeah, of course
<katlogic> i think visual has a potential in high-level component designs
<devyn> honestly I can't think of any code editing woes I have that haven't been solved by vim
<katlogic> where you just connect input-output pads in diagrams
<devyn> yeah I suppose so
<katlogic> while severely limited in utility, it is useful to express complext state machines
<Cheery> my plan here is to construct something like what ELLIOTTCABLE told about. homoiconic and generic.
<Cheery> with minimum elements, like lisp
<devyn> plenty of proprietary interfaces for things already do stuff like that though
<katlogic> yup
<devyn> I think it's more of a special-case thing
<katlogic> Cheery: nothing wrong with generics (UML tools typically have 'map' block to which you feed list of functions and list of arguments etc)
<katlogic> because typical imperative loops are very seldom used in graphical designs
<Cheery> not that kind of generic, but kind of generic the guy who wrote this: http://sourceforge.net/p/readable/wiki/Problem/
<katlogic> unfortunately you can go only as far as simple functional programming
<katlogic> more involved imperative things are rather cumbersome to express visually
<katlogic> most notably because of lack of lexical scope
<Cheery> anyway. I hope to get up something you can actually try out and then tell how bad it is. :)
<katlogic> theres either global or function argument, no scope captures
<katlogic> not even closures :/
<katlogic> Cheery: it's like replacing english story with picture book
<katlogic> sure it is possible to convey ideas; but only very coarsely or only very simple ones :/
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<katlogic> Cheery: as for paranthesis, this can be replaced by clever whitespacing rules
<katlogic> problem with that while it is easier to write, and you can lie to yourself it is more readable, it tends to obscure context :/
<katlogic> balanced example would be python, over-the-top is coffeescript with its shitton of ambiguity where one has to see js output to even figure out whats going on
<Cheery> I can handle coffeescript just fine
<Cheery> katlogic: syntax may do the thing just fine most of the time
<katlogic> Cheery: theres this neuroimaging research wrt programming
<katlogic> and result was: we develop language centers brain activity when _reading_ programs; presumably syntax is processed as natural language
<katlogic> hence, the more involved syntax and grammar rules, the harder it is to pick up
<Cheery> did they do that with different languages?
<katlogic> yes; with lisp almost no activity
<katlogic> only spatial thinking
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<Cheery> wtf
<katlogic> which is second center used; but to reason about algorithms
<Cheery> katlogic: it's exactly what I thought while ago
<Cheery> lisp doesn't tax certain part of my brains
<Cheery> katlogic: where's the paper?!
<katlogic> Cheery: i think it was some popsci argument on reddit
<katlogic> Cheery: as for 'taxing' i have my doubts its a good thing
<katlogic> spatial thinking and language processing are very distinct areas
<katlogic> best case scenario is we use both in tandem
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<katlogic> what lisp lacks in syntax it must supplant in additional semantic 'complexity'.
<katlogic> quoted, because it turns out it might be rather elegant most of the time, instead of the more explicity imperative style
<Cheery> yes it does.
<katlogic> ideally you want both
<katlogic> good syntax for places where imperative style is inevitable
<katlogic> and very simple syntax for functional style.
<Cheery> due to how people read at pictures, I don't think language processing is two-dimensiola though.
<Cheery> *one-dimensional
<katlogic> and you get this gizmo result, like ML or haskell
<katlogic> problem is that the interactions between the two distinct styles create new disturbing oddities
<Cheery> thinking about stuff such as vertical align.
<katlogic> like if brain is stuck deciding if it is java or scheme we're dealing with
<Cheery> or horizontal
<katlogic> typing tends to fall into language area
<Cheery> yeah. it's another thing that bothers me about visual programming.
<katlogic> so the pure spatial syntax is best typeless (or heavily inferring)
<katlogic> anyhow, at least for me personally, all the hybrids between the approaches turned out mostly failures
<Cheery> input should somewhat match the output, or otherwise it's hard to learn.
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<katlogic> and even if someone did translate scheme semantics right into simple imperative syntax (lua being the poster child); in the end you dont use it as lisp at all
<katlogic> being it functional-friendly is just nice touch, not central tenet
<Cheery> why syntax works like it works?
<Cheery> it's like a blessing and a curse
<Cheery> makes things harder to learn, obfuscates some very nice principles, in other hand makes some things clean and easy to read.
<katlogic> syntax is nice to 'get overall picture and convey some minute details'
<katlogic> without syntax, ie s-expr, you are forced to remove that aspect of your code
<Cheery> it doesn't get away with a visual editor, that I've already gotten to figure out.
<katlogic> ie functions must be short and sweet, no side effects, no imperative style
<Cheery> well I use side-effects in snakelisp code
<katlogic> careful about that
<Cheery> designed the semantics to help with those
<katlogic> youre creating another imperative gizmo
<katlogic> while it is ok to do that occasionaly
<katlogic> as a central tenet you end up with imperative spaghetti
<katlogic> in language with no syntax
<katlogic> Cheery: i'd call it 'context separation'
<katlogic> syntax helps describe context
<katlogic> without syntax, you must be careful to make contexes small and modular; then syntax is not necessary or even redundant
<Cheery> immediately comes to mind algebraic syntax, and css, html
<joelteon> guys
<joelteon> is it correct or possible to link an existing binary with a library
<joelteon> because
<katlogic> possible if you must
<joelteon> i'll look at the fucking makefile
<katlogic> but if you have source code
<katlogic> dont do it
<katlogic> just fucking static link it from the beggining
<joelteon> well, it's a rubygem
<joelteon> guess i'm gonna either patch it or fork it
<katlogic> haha
<katlogic> well, static linking anything in language extensions is tricky one
<katlogic> as ruby itself kinda expects dlsym / dlopen to work
* katlogic made some static lua things
<joelteon> okay that's fine
<katlogic> it all boils down to replacing dlopen / dlsym with custom version
<joelteon> but i'm trying to build libv8, right
<joelteon> and it has a --use-system-v8 option
<katlogic> which resolves the symbols you have static linked
<katlogic> oooh
<joelteon> but nobody ever actually uses that option
<joelteon> because v8 creates init.bundle which isn't linked with v8 at all
<joelteon> it has references to a bunch of v8 symbols though
<katlogic> yeah, that could work then statically into dynamic ext. assuming there is libv8.a which is -fPIC
<joelteon> because init.bundle is created, but it's not used when v8 is packaged with the gem
<joelteon> okay i'll look at that
<Cheery> katlogic: so is it a bad idea to create a visual programming editor on top of lisp concepts?
<joelteon> there's a libv8.dylib
<joelteon> so i guess that doesn't help at all
<joelteon> there's a dylib and a .so
<katlogic> Cheery: i think its an awesome idea :) i'm just saying that it might not be that helpful though
<katlogic> Cheery: functional programming being very alien to newbies already
<katlogic> and youre creating visual tool for abstract lispesque thinking
<katlogic> where newbies prefer imperative natural language style
<katlogic> Cheery: also, what would be really cool is to make it touchscreen friendly
<katlogic> think lisp for android devices
<katlogic> because typing there is really not an option
<katlogic> also would be ultimately rather star-trek esque :)
<Cheery> always feeling sad when looking at a tablet, realising that it's really hard to use it for programming anything.
<Cheery> so I guess I agree on that part
<katlogic> not if "programming" is just drawing inputs-outputs
<katlogic> variable names generated on touch of a button and selecting a topic area, selecting a word
<katlogic> for example variable and function naming
<katlogic> thats the problem no1 in visual programming
<katlogic> you cant have people type those, they have to select those ... somehow
<Cheery> well that kind of programming. I thought about implementing keyboard interface to this weekend project
* katlogic is either pro-heavy keyboard use, or (almost) no keyboard at all
<katlogic> i'm not sure of the benefits of visual programming when keyboard is available
<katlogic> the throughput far surpasses anything mouse/touchscreen could do
<katlogic> but also occupies all 10 fingers, not just one or two
<Cheery> it does. but only if there's a good parser in front of it.
<katlogic> even for lisp :)
<Cheery> vim after keyboard and productivity skyrockets
<Cheery> even with lisp
<katlogic> oh that; naturally
<katlogic> though not much fancy macros needed for lisp
<katlogic> vim is needed mostly to deal with arbitrary syntax rules of grammar heavy languages
<Cheery> true. but the basic motions are still useful.
<katlogic> lisp editor does just ... indent according to parens, paren matching, some symbol autocomple according to current lexical scope ... and that is all
<katlogic> now you mention it
<katlogic> i suspect there is heavy language center use just to deal with vim
<Cheery> might be. it depends on how heavily you rely to it
<katlogic> you have to naturally convey "sentences" into vim agglutinative "language"
<Cheery> there's some insane settings and then there's simple things.
<katlogic> mostly motor memory
<Cheery> but unlike traditional syntax, I find vim universally useful. it doesn't get to the way
<Cheery> it may be use of the language that is differnt
<Cheery> vim commands are sort of.. you never modify them afterwards or work with them
<joelteon> :q
<joelteon> whoops
<Cheery> you don't care about a form.
<devyn> lol joelteon
<purr> lol
<devyn> appropriate
<Cheery> in that sense it's more like speaking.
<joelteon> oh is it?
<joelteon> oh you guys are talking about vim
<joelteon> nice
<katlogic> Cheery: yeah, theres this video of some python guy with severe carpal tunel syndrome
<katlogic> Cheery: audio recognition for vim commands, basically he talks in grunts to his editor
<joelteon> that's hilarious
<devyn> Cheery: I think if you can solve the touchscreen programming problem, that would be worthwhile
<katlogic> also the setup is insane .. apparently good audio recog sw is win32 only, so he runs winxp in dosemu and talks to vim via ipc
<katlogic> s/dosemu/qemu/
<katlogic> yeah
<katlogic> 1+ for touchscreen
<devyn> Cheery: visual arrangement of lispy code with programmable gestures for insertion of symbols could work
<katlogic> and audio recognition for variable naming
<katlogic> that would be awesome
<katlogic> computer! name this variable 'klingon_cruiser'
<devyn> audio + gestures, even
<devyn> so you don't have to say 'fn' over and over
<katlogic> devyn: nah, those things is all touch / simple gestures
<devyn> yeah, that's what I was thinking, but not fixed; user programmable
<katlogic> gestures or not is rather blurry tho, because thats just some synthetic grammar too
<devyn> so like if their framework has a very common function, you add a gesture
* katlogic not too fond of gestures except navigation
<Cheery> do you btw. know about something like jsfiddle, but with multiple files, maybe better?
<devyn> I think as long as they're kept to a minimum by default they're good
<Cheery> it might make sense to write the weekend project in something like that, so one could modify it.
<devyn> Cheery: github pages :p
<katlogic> Cheery: voluntarily subjecting yourself to javascript?
<katlogic> what are you; some sort of masochist?
<Cheery> well jsfiddle allows coffeescript
<Cheery> github pages seem good enough
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<Cheery> important is that one could pick it up and modify easily enough
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<katlogic> Cheery: meh
* katlogic gave up on drive-by coders
<katlogic> either its in version control or fuck off
<katlogic> Cheery: also, there is codepen
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<devyn> glowcoil: so I've learned that there are a whole bunch of verbs that where -a/-e determines transitivity. somaru "to be dyed" (intransitive), someru "to dye" (transitive); kasanaru "to be piled up"/"to overlap" (intransitive), kasaneru "to pile up" (transitive)
<devyn> glowcoil: yet it's not a formally specified rule I can find anywhere
<devyn> glowcoil: kinda neat
<devyn> that's even the difference between hajimaru and hajimeru
<devyn> so ichidan -aru is intransitive while ichidan -eru is transitive
<joelteon> is that an ld flag
<devyn> yes, of course
<devyn> :p
<katlogic> weeaboo
* katlogic is just jealous
<katlogic> but hey; i managed to fathom c++ in late 20s, maybe i can still learn mandarin or japanese
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<devyn> katlogic: haha, well, I started in high school
<devyn> (though, I mean, I only got out of there just over a year ago)
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<Cheery> just a stub for now
<joelteon> and i thought npm made installing dependencies *easier*
<joelteon> whoops
<devyn> npm is terrible
<joelteon> you'd think system tools written in javascript would work really well
<yorick> devyn: better than cabal
<joelteon> nice one
<yorick> oh, your compiler updated a minor version? better recompile everything!
<joelteon> tell you what, if you were allowed to duplicate all the dependencies for every package in haskell, cabal would be easy too
<joelteon> and i'm willing to bet that cabal wouldn't panic because it couldn't modify the file that it just deleted
<yorick> yeah, but everything would be huge and take even longer
<joelteon> that's my point
<devyn> yorick: that's not even cabal's fault; many compiled languages would have that problem - rust's cargo likely does too (though I haven't checked)
<yorick> devyn: I don't know any package managers better than npm
<joelteon> yorick has never heard of any package managers
<joelteon> anyway, nix is definitely better
<devyn> if we're just talking package managers in general, pacman is fucking excellent
<yorick> joelteon: I've been told to not use nix
<joelteon> also, a good package manager for javascript is like getting really, really good at pooping
<joelteon> what's the point
<yorick> imagine being really, really good at pooping
<yorick> hmm
<joelteon> i am
<joelteon> anyway i'm really mad at npm right now
<Cheery> check this out: http://cheery.github.io/lisp-editor/
<Cheery> I just implemented the layout I planned for.
<Cheery> editing command set, input processing, selection paint left.
<devyn> I think this guy is a legit rabbi *and* programmer
<joelteon> some open source readmes are just
<joelteon> CRINGEWORTHY
<devyn> like the millions of stat ticker images?
<devyn> "100% AGILE CLOUD PASSING"
<joelteon> no
<joelteon> like this
<joelteon> read the whole thing and tell me how you feel about this guy
<joelteon> i dont give a fuck about status badges, i kinda like them
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<devyn> joelteon: most of it isn't bad... there's a nice little tutorial there. the intro part is kinda obnoxious but eh
<joelteon> oh ok
<devyn> wow south korea looks very american
<devyn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SK_Group#mediaviewer/File:SK_Group_Headquarters_(Base)_(SK%EA%B7%B8%EB%A3%B9_%EB%B3%B8%EC%82%AC_%EA%B1%B4%EB%AC%BC_%EA%B8%B0%EB%8B%A8%EB%B6%80).JPG
<devyn> the crosswalks and road signs and stuff
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<devyn> elphie: sorry I left you dancing alone
<devyn> got busy at work
<elphie> devyn: that's okay :)
elphie is now known as gqbe
<gqbe> fuuuuck
<gqbe> forgot my pw temporarily
<gqbe> so i can't id
gqbe is now known as gq
<gq> -fingernails
<purr> gq: they're weird
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<glowcoil> devyn: that's cool
<glowcoil> devyn: i like that stuff
<gq> glowcoil: i think i finally got my webcomic idea fleshed out
<gq> i did a few test pages, with a different character
<gq> but i'm pleased, i think i might be able to start production soon, or at least something resembling a coherent series.
<devyn> gq: bloody hell what's your obsession with -fingernails
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<devyn> glowcoil: I know you do. hence, why I hilighted you
* gq snickers
<gq> sorry, i find it funny
<gq> and half the time i can't remember purr's commands
<gq> my memory's worse than ec's these days
<devyn> lo.
<gq> -lol
<purr> gq: lol
<gq> -devyn
<purr> gq: he is so wat right now
<devyn> I am so wat right now
<devyn> devyn: wat.
<purr> beep.
<joelteon> you're soaking wat
<gq> -joelteon
<purr> gq: Not an otter.
<gq> -otter
<gq> hehehehe
<gq> -gqbrielle
<purr> gq: she is not devyn (I think.)
<gq> -gq
<purr> gq: genderqueer
<gq> yus
<devyn> -otters
<purr> devyn: write-only stream
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> joelteon: it makes so much sense
<joelteon> yeah
<joelteon> it does
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