#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-05-17 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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08:56 <petertodd> anyone know of some up-to-date UTXO age distribution graphs? (or better yet, UTXO priority distribution graphs)

09:05 <iddo> petertodd: not sure if this could be helpful: https://oxt.me/charts , it has BDD

09:18 <petertodd> iddo: not quite what I need, but thanks all the same!w

09:19 <iddo> yes it's just some old link that i bumped into and bookmarked, i don't have anything better :(

09:19 <petertodd> iddo: bdd unfortunately doesn't work for what I'm trying to figure out, because the metric could be almost entirely a few large, old, txouts being spent, with the vast majority of txouts not being included in themetric

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09:22 <iddo> ok if i understand correctly that site does averaging, and you need data without averaging..

09:22 <iddo> how difficult is it to parse the blockchain and do it yourself? :)

09:23 <petertodd> iddo: it's not *that* difficult, but I was hoping to avoid doing that work - I'll probably just have my paper say those stats need to be analysed in the "Future Work" section :)

09:23 <petertodd> (I was hoping to have finished this on sunday...)

09:25 <iddo> you can try reversed roles, instead of other people hiring you to do all sorts of tasks, you can hire someone to do tedious work for you:)

09:27 <petertodd> iddo: heh, I'm not even getting properly paid for this! BTCC is the only entity sponsoring my Bitcoin work right now, and this month I'm going to spend a lot more time working on Core than the 15hrs/month they're paying for

09:28 <petertodd> this paper alone has probably been 15-20 hours of work

09:28 <iddo> what's the paper about? if it's not a secret

09:29 <iddo> is it the solution to all of our problems..? :)

09:29 <petertodd> iddo: I'm finally writing up TXO commitments - the solution to all of our problems

09:31 <iddo> ok i googled, looking here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/peter-todd-scalability/

09:32 <petertodd> oh cool! I'd forgotten about that

09:32 <smooth> iddo: its very easy to use the restful api in core, i did it last year in few hours to measure somethign similar

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09:34 <iddo> ok..

09:34 <iddo> petertodd: TXO commitments require consensus on the UTXO set?

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09:35 <petertodd> iddo: yup... but uh... bitcoin requires consensus on the UTXO set in general! :)

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09:36 <iddo> i mean, consensus on a particular representation of UTXO set, which bitcoin doesn't require now..

09:36 <petertodd> yeah, TXO commitments definitely sets that in stone

09:38 <iddo> would it be a controversial softfork? miners will need to do a little more work to verify that the committed UTXO set is in the right format, but SPV clients benefit a lot?

09:39 <iddo> also, can it be done as a softfork? so old clients won't reject this new stuff?

09:39 <petertodd> yes! so far no-one has come up with a way to make TXO commitments fast enough; my paper is proposing a way to sidestep the problem

09:39 <petertodd> yup, this is 100% a soft-fork

09:39 <iddo> cool

09:40 <iddo> i remember that you once told me that the complex ways to represent UTXO are overkill, simple way is probably better..

09:42 <petertodd> yeah, though just wait till you see what my paper proposes - I may be a bit of a hypocrit there :)

09:42 <iddo> ok:)

09:44 <iddo> btw here is my new work, nothing really useful like that stuff that you do though...

09:44 <iddo> behold, bitcoin beacon http://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04559

09:44 <petertodd> oh good - I was hoping someone would write up that idea properly!

09:45 <petertodd> anyway, bbl, better finish this paper off before I get distracted :)

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15:24 <kanzure> "In case the adversary has an infinite budget, we provide an impossibility result that stems from the similarity between the Bitcoin model and Santha-Vazirani sources."

15:24 <kanzure> "bitcoin beacon" http://arxiv.org/abs/1605.04559

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15:28 <kanzure> about txo commitments:

15:28 <kanzure> https://s3.amazonaws.com/peter.todd/bitcoin-wizards-13-10-17.log

15:28 <kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314467.0

15:28 <kanzure> https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-core-dev/2015-12-28/?msg=56907496&page=2

15:29 <kanzure> about utxo commitments:

15:29 <kanzure> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/namecoin_that_sucks_less

15:29 <kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1048021.0

15:29 <kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1056866.0

15:29 <kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1129695.0

15:29 <kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-November/003714.html

15:29 <kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3977

15:30 <kanzure> http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/29/Pettycoin-Revisted-Part-I:-UTXO-Commitments.html

15:30 <kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-09-18.log

15:30 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf

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17:31 <kanzure> "Making UTXO Set Growth Irrelevant With Low-Latency Delayed TXO Commitments" https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-May/012715.html

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17:36 <kanzure> petertodd: have you looked at bramc's high-performance merkle set stuff?

17:36 <kanzure> petertodd: https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet

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19:54 <kanzure> about smart contracts and bitcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1427885.msg14601127#msg14601127

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20:01 <petertodd> kanzure: yeah, I discussed it with bramc at the practical crypo conf a few months ago in stanford

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20:01 <petertodd> kanzure: keep in mind, I mainly wrote that paper because I wanted to dispell the idea that TXO commitments weren't possible; I'd be delighted if a sufficiently high performance implementation was available to avoid the delay trick

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22:13 <fluffypony> http://blog.coinfabrik.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ECDSA-Security-in-Bitcoin-and-Ethereum-a-Research-Survey.pdf

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22:20 <kanzure> fluffypony: if i hadn't stopped to read it, i would have pasted that a few minutes earlier. drats.

22:20 <fluffypony> does this mean I beat kanzure at typing ?

22:20 <fluffypony> :-P

22:27 <nsh> 'Using the computer algebra system PARI, one easily verifies that #E(F_p) = 1.r with prime r = 2^256 - 2^219 - 1'

22:27 <nsh> if it was that easy, they could have linked to a transcript

22:30 <nsh> here's one for interest: http://people.math.umass.edu/~siman/10.797N/pari-session

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22:46 <c0rw1n> fluffypony: only if you manage to type while sleeping

22:46 <fluffypony> lol

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