sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
Taek: There's certainly a fastest speed given your security assumptions, and indeed it's set by the size of the Earth, and that block time is around ~1s. We're 600 times slower. There are valuable improvements to be made.
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<gmaxwell>
1s makes sense only if you don't mind if it never converges.
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<midnightmagic>
Plus doesn't it mean that it only ever travels in a single straight line?
<Taek>
midnightmagic: I'm not sure what you are asking? Information can travel in a sphere?
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<midnightmagic>
No, I mean 1s I think might be assuming that blocks don't propagate in a *network*. Oh and also there's zero validation time.
<bsm117532>
gmaxwell: obviously requires redefining the "chain" structure to eliminate the orphan race...
<kanzure>
that doesn't count until you finish your document and publish
<bsm117532>
Yeah a straight up 1s block time bitcoin clone would never converge. ;-)
<bsm117532>
kanzure: I've got a long train ride tomorrow...and a laptop.
<bsm117532>
Is anyone here following the Ethereum Casper plans? I missed a talk about it a couple days ago, but I still don't think it makes any sense...
<Taek>
informal conversations with Vlad, the primary author of Casper, suggest that Vlad/Vitalik aren't yet comfortable with the current protocol and wouldn't hardfork Ethereum to proof-of-stake until they've got something improved/finalized
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<bsm117532>
That's good to hear. Everything I've heard so far, including their determination to move to something that doesn't exist...scare me.
<Taek>
After their major crowd fund I think they felt invincible. They underestimated the problem. I realized that Vitalik is a lot smarter than I previously gave him credit, and now I'm more optimistic about Ethereum not doing anything really dumb in their protocol
<bsm117532>
Their current design (and I think any possible "fix") can be killed by making a fork with a length equal to the bail-in time for security deposits. So after 4 months I'm going to make 10,000 forks at near-zero cost to me, and watch everyone try to figure out which one is "weakly subjectively" the right one.
<Taek>
hmm, maybe I shouldn't speculate though.
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<bsm117532>
Taek: I heard from someone else that Gavin Wood would veto it if it didn't work, and did after Vlad invented a broken memory-hard PoW algorithm... So hopefully wisdom will prevail.
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<amiller>
is anyone working on N-party lightning
<amiller>
as a way of reducing collateral costs
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<katu>
amiller: is there something particularly stopping a payment channel to be a multisig one?
<instagibbs>
amiller, you could do it with a janky softfork, yes
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<instagibbs>
in Bitcoin, I asked you a while ago to try and do it in ethereum as-is, it might be possible
* amiller
forgot lol
<instagibbs>
hah!
<instagibbs>
busy with interviews IIRC
<amiller>
i don't think i understood what the goal would be until just now :)
<instagibbs>
ah, right, it's pretty simple what the benefits are, but the negatives can also get quite high with higher N
<instagibbs>
a native Ethereum N party would be something to play with, as you wouldn't have to lobby for a softfork(which has ~0% chance of being deployed)
<amiller>
yeah, once it's clear what the behavior should be with an eth prototype, then we can try to figure out how to stuff it into utxos and cltv
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<xcthulhu>
Hi! In understand that in principle public keys can be can be recovered from signatures, and that BitCoin Core has entertained implementing this in the past. Now that block space is scarce, are they doing this now? Sorry if this is a n00b question
<belcher>
its believed satoshi didnt know about this feature so bitcoin signatures dont use it
<belcher>
segwit probably allows it to be used
<xcthulhu>
That’s a pity. Thank you.
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<Taek>
can you do that with Schnorr?
<xcthulhu>
Hopefully the segwit soft fork takes advantage of this…
<adam3us>
Taek yes
<adam3us>
the problem is schnorr supports batch signatures which requires the public key and verifies about 2x faster if i recall in libsecp
<adam3us>
so if you omitted the pubkey you'd lose the ability to do fast batch sig verification
<Taek>
depends on where the bottleneck ends up I suppose. If 3 years from now we have 32 core computers it might not be an issue
<adam3us>
the other thing is schnorr signature aggregation if used across transaction inputs reduces average transaction size by 30% about.
<Taek>
still wrapping my head around this, it's new to me, but I don't think you would lose signature aggregation
<adam3us>
and it's coin join compatible so if you coin join all transactions in a block you get almost 50% smaller transactions.
<Taek>
oh nvm you can't combine signatures without having all the pubkeys, because someone could make inverse pubkeys to omit signatures
<adam3us>
so the point with schnorr aggregation is it reduces the number of signatures used at all. if you coinjoin everything there is one signature in the entire block. if you aggregate across your own inputs only it's 30% smaller not sure what ratio fewer sigs that is.
<adam3us>
Taek yes you still need the pubkeys after aggregation
<adam3us>
aggregation is possible because you can add schnorr pub keys and schnorr signatures and they still verify.
<adam3us>
Taek did you figure out the inverted pubkeys on the fly ;) or you remembering from before?
<Taek>
sipa told me about it at one point
<Taek>
a good memory goes a long way :)
<adam3us>
but what you could do i was thinking is have miners omit the pubkeys optionally.
<adam3us>
eg if the blocks were under pressure they could tradeoff size for verification speed.
<adam3us>
recalling you can still verify, just without the 50% batch verification speed improvement
<adam3us>
gmaxwell was also saying you could send the pubkey instead of pubkeyhash + pubkey, that would be somewhere in between in size.
<adam3us>
Taek ie currently with p2sh it is sending pubkeyhash, and then pubkey+sig; using key recovery it would send pubkeyhash, then sig; with gmaxwell 3rd variant it could send pubkey, then sig which is still batch verifiable and in between in size between the 2 other options.
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<Taek>
but then you lose privacy on the pubkey, which imho is important for doomsday stuff
<adam3us>
Taek yes i like pubkeyhash only as the window for discrete log is then very short.
<Taek>
because we only store pubkey hases before spending outputs, we can hard-fork in a guy-fawkes signature
<xcthulhu>
If you have key recovery then you’ve already lost privacy
<Taek>
xcthulhu: you have to reveal the pubkey when you make the signature anyway. The privacy is for before you sign anything
<adam3us>
xcthulhu Taek means it delays knowledge of the pubkey so you cant try to do a huge discrete log attack, as you cant start the DL attack until you know the pubkey (and people shouldnt be reusing pub keys)
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<xcthulhu>
Heh. I worked on Ethereum (just the mining algo, nothing else really). I love how we never gave a damn about any of these concerns…
<xcthulhu>
Not that they aren’t valid
<xcthulhu>
It’s just Ethereum is a dog and pony show
<xcthulhu>
Off-topic
<xcthulhu>
Thanks for the discussion, guys.
<Taek>
Ethereum is doing a fair number of innovative things, and they've done a good job of getting nontechnical people excited about blockchains
<MaxSan_>
innovation is one thing but the whole "built it and they will come" is long dead. Its a good way to get an angry mob if promises are made about expectations of a platform that dont live up to requirements.
<xcthulhu>
It’s a nice short term investment.
<MaxSan_>
Not what I am about and I feel everything it offers is better done in different ways.
<Taek>
Fwiw, Ethereum has had fewer angry mobs than Bitcoin. Though, they are younger
<MaxSan_>
Anyone that offers "blockchain" solutions and smart contracts together their architectural logic of the platform is probably dreadful or a marketing scam.
<xcthulhu>
Hehe, I was at the head of one of those angry mobs a while back :D
<xcthulhu>
(for Ethereum)
<belcher>
do angry mobs really happen? wouldnt people just exit by selling?
<belcher>
i dont think there have been any angry mobs in other altcoins
<xcthulhu>
Ah, it was before launch
<xcthulhu>
Anyway, I currently have a little contract work to do the crypto for an alt-coin. Should I consider supporting Schnorr’s algorithm?
<xcthulhu>
I’ll ask somewhere else if that’s off-topic here.
<xcthulhu>
By Schnorr’s algorithm I mean Schnorr signatures.
<adam3us>
probably easiest thing to do is wait until bitcoin does it soon and copy it.
<xcthulhu>
lol
<xcthulhu>
Yeah that was my plan… except I want to include a bit to recover the PubKey from my ECDSA signatures which is harmless.
<xcthulhu>
bitcoinj has the code in there for this already tbh it’s just dead.
<xcthulhu>
lol and ethereumj is just copy-pasta of bitcoinj I love how moronic those guys are.
<xcthulhu>
Anyway, thanks adam3us
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<waxwing>
isn't the interactivity of doing aggregated schnorr going to be a problem?
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<adam3us>
well 30% of the potential ~50% compression comes from aggregating the inputs from your own multi-input transactions.
<adam3us>
which you can do locally.
<waxwing>
good point, true
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<adam3us>
waxwing the interactivity is compatible with coinjoin interaction
<waxwing>
true, no doubt about that
<waxwing>
i was more interested when you were talking about aggregating whole blocks together :)
<waxwing>
"interested", i mean i was wondering about it
<waxwing>
but these other cases are clear cut in terms of advantages, and that's enough...
<waxwing>
still quite fascinated about the effectively infinite "compression" achieved by this aggregation. feels like a free lunch somehow.
<waxwing>
and yet the algebra is clear enough
<adam3us>
waxwing well it doesnt totally get rid of the pubkey+sig because you have to retain all the pubkeys
<waxwing>
sure. still surprising. except in as much as schnorr is pretty much what a digital signature "should" be from first principles, at least seems that way
<waxwing>
so i guess the simplest possible construction is the one most likely to have nice "symmetries" or whatever
<adam3us>
waxwing yeah i believe dsa never would have existed except us gov cheaped out on buying the now expired patent from prof klaus schnorr
<adam3us>
an nsa guy twiddled with it enough claim no patent coverage and the resulting more complicated less flexible result was dsa
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<waxwing>
i still can't quite believe i live in a world where people own equations
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<maaku>
The fact that something as trivial as Schnorr can be patented says much about our system
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<sipa>
ohai.
<fluffypony>
ola
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